Munster wont eat/drink after surgery - He's gone <3

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stop the fluids, I think

I'd be worried about fluid build up and over taxing his kidneys at this point, IF he were a cat
I don't know if that translates at all to rat care but it looks to me like he's eating enough on his own of foods with liquid in them to not need supplements


you can throw off the body's electrolyte balance I think if you overdo fluid therapy

Not sure but i'd be worried about that


I'd also add antibiotics to head off a resp issue but i could be way off on that too. I don't know

FWIW Teddy fell and didn't show any signs of a problem for many weeks, then he was ok, and then he became paralyzed slowly over time, no xray was done but he may have a disc out of place or something, I don't know

so many things can go wrong with these little guys :sad3:
 
why stop? The fluids were the only thing that seemed to help him when he crashed Saturday night. He was limp/lethargic and would not eat or drink. A pinch test didn't even budge, his urine was discolored and stinky and after the sub-q's he began eating a little again. His urine is still a bit stinky but not quite as yellow, but I know when I stopped Sunday to Monday night he didn't drink anything from his bottle. To date, I've not seen him drink anything from the bottle, just finally eating again. His pinch test today wasn't as bad as Saturday, but still slow to bounce back.
 
The thing with using RLS for fluids is you risk causing an electrolyte imbalance if you give too much or give when not needed. I'm surprised it's so popular to use RLS instead of other more balanced solutions, I remember when I asked my vet why he preferred Plasmalyte A he made it sound like RLS was really not a great choice for rehydrating. Coconut juice by mouth is a good source of electrolytes and most rats go nuts for it.

I would also be inclined to try antibiotics at this point, not so sure about steroids. Do you know what was used to anesthetize him for surgery?
 
I don't honestly have any idea what they used to sedate him during surgery, sorry.

For his sub-q, he's being given Sodium Chloride .9%. I did ask about the RLS, and he said (I think I have this right, but don't quote me) that he didn't like to use it unless in cases where they had diarrhea. Now, I could be mistaken on his reason there as there was a lot of things I was trying to take in during that appointment, but I think that was it.

I will certainly look in to coconut juice. I assume Ensure is still a decent thing for him at this point unless anyone tells me otherwise. & I'll be sure to ask about abs at this point as well.
 
The vet office just called. She said he thinks it might be a possibility that the tumor had spread and could cause neuro issues. My hunch is not with that simply because he had great mobility before the surgery, this all definitely seems like after surgery issues, except for whatever the underlying issue was for him being dehydrated before the surgery as well.

They said he could come in for a shot of dex. I also stressed that I do see a lot more wet sneezes now and wonder about pneumonia. I've never dealt with pneumonia before, have no idea of the exact symptoms or best course of treatment. She said she would go tell him about the wet sneezes and see about ab's, since I said it really seems best to try ab's while he is still eating and I know I should be able to get them into him.

If we are suspecting pneumonia, is baytril enough? Would pneumonia make them weak as shown in the video?
 
Also, since the vet said he could try dex, if that seems like a good thing to try now, I can either take him to the vet for the injection or, I assume, it can simply be added to his next dose of sub-q tonight (I have dex at home from Nibs and her resp. trouble). I certainly don't mind taking him to the vet for the shot if it's best to do so, but I still have worries about stressing him even more with another rainy drive to the vet and back. It's certainly not a money issue, I just want to make sure I'm doing the very best things to give him his best shot at beating this. Part of me just wonders if it's better to add the dex at home to his fluids at this point.

I'm wondering if it's best to try the baytril first, and use the dex if the baytril shows no improvement? Not sure if it's better to throw everything at him at once, or to try things one at a time in a case like this.
 
Also, I'm sure it's probably a long shot but I'm still going to ask. Is it wrong to wonder about seeing if perhaps one of my rats might be ok with him? I'm sure the answer is probably no, but I can't help but feel that he is all alone here, sick and possibly dying, and with no companion by his side because we haven't even gotten to intros yet. I thought, perhaps, that with him being a mellow boy and Merle as well, they might just get along well enough. I'm sure it's wishful thinking, but I hate that he's all alone and I keep thinking that maybe, just maybe, one of mine might instantly take to him and comfort him. Is this just not done?
 
was just about to post and saw your question- I forget his history, has he always been alone, do you know? if he's had rat buddies before I'd give it a shot, just don't leave them alone at all and see how he reacts. I'm sure he smells the ohters and must be curious.

ok i wrote this before:

did you tell the vet what he's been getting for fluids (how much and how often) and also how much liquid he's taken in via the wet foods he's eaten?

did the vet say to continue the fluids?

with the possibility of pneumonia, that doesn't sound like a good idea to me. but I'm not a vet

when my girl had pneumonia, you could hear her breathing from way across the room, it was horrible sounding.
she went in and got the steroid shot and started on baytril and doxy right away. You don't want to mess around with pneumonia.


if his kidneys are compromised, excess fluids can actually make them worse. he's getting fluids with sodium in them, he can get fluid buildup and excess sodium in his blood if you give too much
I know it seems like giving fluids this way can't cause any problems but they really can. you want to use just what is needed only for as long as it's really needed and no more.

rats who eat veggies and other wet foods will not drink much water from the bottle, they don't need to. when my guys get a good snack of cereal with almond milk they won't drink any water for the rest of that day

I don't know about the tumor and all, the vet did the surgery so he'd know what he saw in there and whether there was a chance it could spread. sadly it's not unusual to find a tumor spread quickly or re grow rapidly after surgery. I hope that's not it but it could be

you're doing everything you can for him, and I'm sure he knows it and appreciates it.
you just want to be careful not to do too much of something that seems to have helped before, and cause another problem down the road, you know?
 
I'll answer your questions in the quote below:

Petunia said:
has he always been alone, do you know? This I can't say for sure, but it sounded like if he ever had buddies, it was a long time ago. All I know is that he was *super* mellow and just wanted to be loved on at my mothers.

did you tell the vet what he's been getting for fluids (how much and how often) and also how much liquid he's taken in via the wet foods he's eaten? Yes. I gave him the exact timeframe for how things occurred, when symptoms were noticed, when & how much fluids were given and when they were stopped, along with how much he had eaten for me on Sunday/Monday morning. And the same info was given for Munster's progress/decline up until now.

did the vet say to continue the fluids? The vet had told me to continue the fluids for 5 days, 10cc's per day and to let him know of any decline. Fluids were still to be given at this point. I then called and stressed the wet sneezes that I'm hearing now and have not received a call back yet. What I'm hearing with Munster is wet sneezes, but no noises otherwise when he isn't sneezing. No congestion, grunts, or otherwise.

RE the tumor: All I really know about this tumor is that is was a large, squishy one under the armpit that grew rapidly in a one week timeframe. I *believe* the vet had warned me that the incision was going to be big because it was attached to the skin throughout most of the tumor, so it wasn't just the type they can pop out easily and remove.
Click to expand...
 
The office just called, they said we could start him on baytril and see if there is any improvement. Still the fluids. I'll assume the dex is a last resort at this point as Munster is still eating, he just looks horrid mobility wise and weak and tired.

I also put a pickle jar filled with warm water in his cage. I figured he could move closer to it if he was cold but still move away from it. On one hand I worry about keeping him warm, but then I find myself also worrying that perhaps I overbundle him and he might overheat.
 
You always want a combination of antibiotics for respiratory infections, especially pneumonia. Baytril paired with Doxy or Zithro are both good.

You can try seeing how he is with your other rats but if he gets stressed, end it immediately. If you're not confident doing intros in general though, maybe it'd be best not to try.

I agree with Petunia, you can be doing harm if you are giving him fluids when he doesn't need them. Coconut juice is an excellent source of electrolytes, if he takes it orally it's better than anything you can inject.

Can you rat phone him and compare him to what your other rats sound like? Pneumonia can be fairly silent, there's not one textbook presentation of it. It wouldn't be my first guess though, his symptoms don't quite fit. He may have an infection or pneumonia may be secondary to whatever else is going on.
 
I was thinking the same thing with the ab's. I have two doxy pills so I'm planning on putting him on baytril/doxy.

For the fluids, I'm not confident stopping them yet as he showed no improvement when I stopped briefly before and he's not drinking out of the bottle, but I am having my father stop at trader joes tomorrow to get coconut water (you meant coconut water, not juice, correct?). I'll give him that as soon as my father gets home tomorrow. We normally go to the cat shelter Wednesdays but I will be staying home with Munster this week.

I wasn't certain about pneumonia either as I've never dealt with it before, but I figure at this point there are probably many things that could be going wrong that ab's might help, so I'm starting with that.
 
Yes, I meant coconut water. I think it's also called young coconut juice, but I could be wrong. In any case, it's the same thing :)
 
Thank you. I'll write those both down. I was able to get Munster to eat the baytril and doxy, along with some more corn kernals, so he's still eating a bit. No improvement whatsover on the mobility. He actually looks even worse, just a tiny step but he couldn't navigate any tiny incline. I tried to help boost him 1 inch into a rectangular hammock with a low entrance, he just put his head there, one food in and laid there in my hand. If I pick him up, he just lays how I leave him...

Off to pick up some ensure for him, then I'll bring him back on the bed with me to make sure he's staying warm enough.
 
really sounds like the best thing you can for him now is hold him and keep him close.

so many things could be happening in that little body, but his heart is telling him that you are safe and he wants to be with you
 
I was going to have someone pick up a bottle of coconut water for me tomorrow in town, but wondered... is the liquid inside of a coconut the same thing? I brought one home from our local store just in case and am hoping the answer is yes. I also picked up Ensure for him. I'm hoping to get down more mushed labblocks and ensure so that I know he is getting all his needed vitamins right now.
 
I do believe that the coconut water is the water from inside the coconut. We used to punch a hole in the coconut with a nail, and then punch the other end so that the liquid could drain out.
Nowadays it seems to be very popular and our grocery store carries lots of brands.
 

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