Intros

[Lourice]

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viewtopic.php?f=22&t=32157

 

[odduckOasis]

So, I had to put down another boy a couple of weeks ago which left me with one rat. I went and got 2 new rats, but I didn't bother trying to intro them to each other, QT and all and making sure my resident rat wasn't too stressed out from losing another cage mate. When I got the 2 brothers, they looked to be about 5 weeks old. I tried an intro at them being 6 weeks, but it didn't go well and I think perhaps they're just too young?
Filbert did a couple of power groomings, something I was expecting. He ignored one of the boys and pounced and pinned one of the others and groomed him fine. I expected that. But then a little later, one boy tried to play with him and pounce on him and Filbert just turned, puffed up and attacked him- causing the younger boy- Pongo, to just squeal. I had to break it up and Pongo ran to me for help. There was no blood, but Filbert looked really pissed. So I ended it.

Today, I tried another intro, but it was over in less than 10 minutes. Pongo wouldn't come out of the carrier I brought them down in, when I pulled him out, he wouldn't go near Filbert, he looked horrified. Filbert still ignored the other, Dusty- at first. I tried to do a cover-scent up trick, but I think that just made them smell like food... cuz when I put some on Filbert and the babies, (I had this tube thing in there, which I now know I should take out)- and Dusty went to run down it and Filbert went after him and started literally pulled him out of it. It scared me so bad I grabbed Filbert and made him let go. Then I tried to wash off the vanilla stuff with a wet wash cloth and when I did to Filbert, he turned and bit me! He barely broke skin, so it wasn't a bad bite, but he still bit me!
He tried to bite me again and then seemed to want to bite my husband, so I put him into his cage and ended that.
The boys were stressed out, so I put them away as well.

They're coming up to 7 weeks old now. So I figure I won't do any more intro's until they're a little older.

Plus, Filbert has mites, and he's on meds atm, but he doesn't get his second does until the 1st of Jan. Should I wait until the mites are cleared up to do the next intro? Do you think that has any factor to his moodiness? Or is it a several factor thing that he misses his cage buddies and is still a bit stressed himself?

Also, I'm thinking of doing an intro in the bathtub, that might make Filbert scared enough too to not be so aggressive...

But any advice would be great.

The other intro's I've done have gone just fine, so this is the first time it's been stressful for me too....

 

[jorats]

If Filbert has mites, they all do and all should be treated. What are you using? Revolution is the best and a one time spot on treatment.
For intros, I recommend waiting until the babies are at least 8 to 10 weeks old.
How old is Filbert?
I would definitely do the intro in the tub, but with no scent masking. They need to "meet" eventually and scent marking is just delaying that process. When you put them in the tub, there should be no toys at all, no tubes, boxes, nothing except a bowl of yummy food like baby food or yogurt.

 

[odduckOasis]

Filbert is probably appx a year and a half, a little over perhaps, so he's a bit older. I am treating him with revolution, yes. Should the babies really be treated even if they're not living in the same room as Filbert? Is it just that they've had contact with him, even a little and they'll have caught it anyways?
And I'll have to take them into the vet to get them weighed to get the right dosage for them...bah. (stupid money...lol) 8I

Yeah, I'll not have any toys or anything and that's a good idea about the soft food like that instead- cuz I worried if I put just like, fruit they'd grab it and run off. I'll let you know how that goes when I do intro's again.

 

[jorats]

Ya, unfortunately, since the babies have physically met Filbert, they will need to be dosed.

 

[odduckOasis]

So it's been a bit and I tried intro's again. Yesterday, I did intro's in the bath tub. Oddly, the older rat, Filbert, who is about a year and a half, perhaps a bit older- didn't seem scared or nervous about being in the bathtub at all. He did a bit of pinning after a little while with the boys and seemed to take a couple of naps actually. He didn't seem overly upset or annoyed by anyone. Pongo, one of the brothers, was really really cautious around Filbert and Dusty, the smaller of the two, seemed to constantly get between Filbert and Pongo, like he was being protective.

Earlier this week, poor Pongo got his finger caught between the bars of the cage he's in (a cage meant for rats) and hurt it pretty badly (he's seen the vet and is on antibiotics and had buprenex)- so he's still a little tender I think too and Dusty I think was worried about him.

I tried another intro today, but I didn't do the bathtub, instead I went on my bed downstairs, a place Filberts been before, but the boys haven't. I suppose that was too familiar- because Filbert was aggressive again, puffed up a bit and got a bit too mean to Pongo once more. When he tried to pounce and pin him and was being rather aggressive about it- I stopped him so Pongo could get away, and when I grabbed him, sorta pinned him down and said "NO!" Filbert immediately started to brux and boggle his eyes.
I know bruxing doesn't always mean contentment. Do you think Filbert was stressed too? He was boggling and bruxing because he got scared? I'd never seen him do that before so it kinda confused and worried me.

If Filbert isn't nervous in the bathtub, is there anywhere else you might suggest I use for a 'scary place' intro? Also, should I do intro's less frequently, so not every day? And, how long should I even use a 'scary place' intro? Until Filbert no longer 'attacks'?

All the the other intro's I've done (which was only 2 actually) were really easy... this is just, not. 8I

Maybe I'm over reacting, but I just don't want to have to wait for there to be blood before I say Filbert is being 'too aggressive' you know?

 

[jorats]

What I would do if I were you is continue on the bed and be ready to stop Filbert like you did. That seems to get his attention. Each time he's about to go for the boys, put your hand over him and say NO. Give that a try and let us know how that goes.

 

[odduckOasis]

K. Did another intro on the bed. I sat on the bed with them. The boys, they were sorta, sticking close to me most of the time. In fact, I think Dusty only got down once and spent the rest of the time sitting on my neck. They were rather scared when I put them out on the bed. For the first little while, Pongo seemed to just avoid Filbert. Then Filbert would go around to him and it'd be fine until Filbert would puff up and try to pounce and I had to stop him. He did get the picture, I even picked him up and turned him over to tell him no and he sat in my hold, a little stiff, but clearly knowing he was in trouble.
At one point, I had all 3 rats sitting on my neck/shoulders. I was wearing a sweatshirt, so sometimes Filbert would go into the hood, but oddly, any time I would pay attention to one of the boys, Filbert seemed to push himself under my hand instead- like he didn't like me paying attention to them. He still went for Pongo a couple of times and even power groomed Dusty who was still on my neck at the time (Filbert groomed him while sitting in my hood... lol). But then later, he was following Pongo again, kept trying to trap him behind a pillow- which I moved so I could see what was going on and stop it if it got out of hand. It wasn't too bad- he was just trying to pin Pongo, but then there was a really loud squeak from Pongo as Filbert rather pounced on him and Pongo darted off, I stopped Filbert from going after him and I saw a little tuft of fur on the bed.
Filbert would stop if I put my hand on him and said NO, but then he'd just try again.

I think Filbert might be a bit jealous of them. He's getting attention from me, but he doesn't seem overly fond of the boys, but at the same time, is curious about them too. It's... very odd.

I'll keep trying. I'll keep updates.

 

[jorats]

This is a good update. Keep at it.

 

[odduckOasis]

So I switched to the couch instead of the bed, easier to manage (smaller) and when I started using it, it was more of a scary place when I first went to it, cuz even Filbert didn't seem to thrilled about being on the couch. I had to stop a bit of a fight with him and Pongo, but I've done it a few times since and it's still going well. I was gone for 3 days over the weekend, so that was a good break. I did a get-together last night and one tonight. It went pretty good. Filbert did a power-groom to Dusty who reacts a little oddly.
When Filbert like, grooms him or gets too close, Dusty will totally freeze, not move at all and then start to kinda, breathe like he's gasping with his eyes slightly closed. Is this a normal thing? If I pick him up (gently) he'll kinda 'wake up' and start breathing normally again. I'm thinking it's like a 'survival mode' sorta thing, but I want to make sure he's okay. He only does it around Filbert, and only started doing it when Filbert sorta attacked him.
Pongo is still a little scared of him, doesn't like to be groomed and if Filbert tries to pin him, a fight breaks out. So I try to stop that from happening to avoid it getting bad. But, Filbert bruxes and he has taken a nap a few times with the boys running around- so I'm assuming he's comfortable.

I'm moving in about 2 1/2 weeks, so gona use that for a better intro op and I'm going to move the boys cage next to Filberts CN just so they can be next to each other more often- smell and get use to each others noises when I'm not around...

But yeah, that's the update so far on intro's. Getting a little better, but I think it'll help more when the boys are a little older and bigger that maybe they'll be able to fight back better instead of running away like scaredy-rats or doing a 'If I sit real still he won't see me'. xD;

 

[jorats]

Dusty half closes his eyes during grooming? When mine do that, it looked like they were enjoying the groom but if you are very sure that Dusty is gasping, that is really not good. This means that Dusty is stressed out when it happens. How old is Dusty?

 

[odduckOasis]

Yeah, he'll have the half closed eyes, like I see them do- but then after I'll watching him and he'll be taking short breaths. At one point, as I was leaning on the couch, he was inside my arms (on the couch) under my chin and I could hear him gasping beneath me and I was like "uhh...." and he just seems really scared. Filbert groomed him once and then sorta attacked him and ever since then, he's been super nervous.
Dusty and Pongo are both about 10 weeks old now. But Dusty is still a bit smaller (tho he eats just fine). If he's stressing out, I guess it'd be best to wait for more time to pass before I do more intros? I don't want Dusty to have a heart attack or something because he's so stressed.

 

[jorats]

Yes, if you are sure he's really gasping, I'd wait a bit but not much because your window of opportunity will close with the babies. At around 5 months, the babies can become more dominant.

 

[fleecywonder]

I have had intro's go very well for me in the past... My girl Bluefairy, I got two baby rats and held them up to the bars of her cage and she sniffed them, they had literally just entered the house and their previous owner was standing right there, then I opened the cage and set the babies in Bluefairys cage, the babies were running all over the place exploring and every chance she got Bluefairy would lick a baby as it ran by, it was literally like they'd known each other for years. They sniffed butts, and that's about it, no flipping no boxing no baby bashing BUT Bluefairy was the lowest rat on the totem pole in her previous group, after all the older rats died she was alone for some time and she'd previously been extremely bonded and well socialized with other female rats and I KNEW she was very lonely and depressed. They lived happily ever after - I watched for about an hour and when they all went to sleep together I went to do other things. That's how good intro's CAN be.

My current girls are different, Harold and Lilly are a bonded pair, Harold is dominant. I tried doing on the bed intro's and Harold grabbed a baby by the scruff of the neck and drug her around while the baby was shrieking and fear pooping and trying to get away. My next step is going to be putting all rats involved in a 1/4th inch of water in the bathtub for 'fear' intro's then I'll stick them all in a crate wet together and see what happens. My guess is they'll be too upset and busy grooming themselves to fight.

 

[jorats]

To be honest, I don't think you need to go that far with the water. Harold was being maternal, not aggressive when she grabbed the baby by the scruff. An aggressive rat would have bit and tore at the baby. Make sure your babies are at least 8 weeks old so they are stronger and can hold their own. Try the bathtub with no water first. That might be all you need.

 

[odduckOasis]

I have a bit of video showing what Filbert was like with Pongo. I need to edit a bit, but I'd like an opinion to see if what was going on was normal- like Flibert was just doing a dominant thing that I shouldn't freak out about so much (and the babies are just squeaking cuz that's what they do). There's never been any blood and Filbert did do the same thing with Dusty once, where he grabbed him and tried to drag him around. Dusty didn't like that very much and the one time that Filbert flipped him and did whatever it was he did that freaked him out- since then Dusty has been doing the 'freeze & gasping' thing. I won't be waiting too long. I keep trying to get them use to each other. I have their cages near one another and Filbert seems very interested in them. Most of the time, they don't seem to bother one another and any time I put Filbert near them, he sniffs like crazy and his eyes seem to get more 'bright' as it were, like he's super excited.
I'm also making an assumption that because Pongo is the Alpha between him and Dusty, that Filbert is sorta showing him 'who's boss' sorta thing- since Filbert is the established rat and all of the house.

I also let the boys explore the big CN w/out Filbert in it, and they seemed to like it... lol. Weren't scared of the scents and such there. I think they are interested in one another, but there are some hiccups here and there.

Do you think I could put them together in the carrier and take them for a car ride? I've heard of people doing that sort of thing, that it can help get them bonded better...?

 

[odduckOasis]

Update!!
Oh wow, I got some pretty great news! This was unexpected....
So I had to clean both their cages today. I put Filbert on the couch downstairs, a place he's familiar with (somewhat) and let the boys run along the top of the CN while I cleared it out and got it ready to be washed up. I had a carrier (big one for a ferret) sitting on top of the cage that they went in and out of several times. So when I had them both in it, I jsut zipped it up and put them inside the carrier on the couch where Filbert was while I then emptied and cleaned out their cage.
After I had it all the plastic stuff in the tub for washing, I went back intot he room, where Filbert was like, leaning against the carrier, super interested in the boys. I opened it up and let them see and touch each other. Filbert seemed fine with them being inside his carrier. He pinned Pongo, did some grooming, then he got a little too aggressive and I stopped him. He did the same to Dusty, but I stopped that too.
But here's the odd part. Dusty kept going inside the carrier where Filbert was, even tho he'd just sit there and look like he was breathing weird. I picked him up and pulled him out, he'd go back in. So I just let him.
Then eventually I picked up Pongo and put him in the carrier too, Filbert didn't seem to care. After a minute or so, I zipped it up with all three rats in it while I went to finish cleaning, rinsing and drying the plastics while the fabric stuff was washing too. I had them in the bathroom with me inside the carrier and Filbert mostly just slept. The other two still seem a bit nervous, but they were grooming themselves and Pongo groomed Dusty a bit.

I think this is amazing! They're all chilling out in the carrier, not seeming overly stressed at all and Filbert is totally chill. Every time Pongo would do a little boxing, Filbert would just put like one paw up and be like 'meh', but he appears to be super content.

I am so happy! =D

 

[jorats]

That is awesome. It does sound like Filbert is very ready for buddies. The fact that Dusty kept going inside the carrier to be near Filbert is a very good thing and this means he's not really scared of Filbert. This is really great.

 

[odduckOasis]

So I put back together the CN and then put all three boys inside it. The 2 young ones were kinda running around curious but scared of the new place at the same time. It was free of Filbert scent since I washed it all out. I put in the hanging pod over in a corner where the boys can get to it but Filbert really can't (he's not a very good climber)- so they have a place to be away from Filbert just in case. For the most part, Filbert slept in one of the bins I have in there, but a couple times he came out and pinned Dusty. I put in an empty oatmeal container, and Dusty would go into it, but it's still big enough for Filbert to get into- and a little scuffle did break out when I was watching. I don't know what exactly happened, Filbert was leaning inside, looking like he was trying to sniff and groom Dusty, then he started puffing up, then his tail whipped about and there was some squealing (not sure if Filbert was doing any of it, but I don't think so). So I pulled him out, calmed Filbert down (cuz his eyes were wide and he was surprised) and then put him back in at the top and moved Dusty to the hanging pod so he could calm down.
I then decided to cut a small hole in the back end of the oatmeal container- big enough for the babies, but too small for Filbert, so they can escape from there if needed.
Decided to let the boys have a little alone time in the cage while I let Filbert out for awhile to play. I'm hoping I can leave them throughout the night and that nothing significantly bad will have happened. There had never been any blood, so I'm hoping there won't be, cuz that'll just, freak me out. 8I

 

[odduckOasis]

Here's the video of Filbert and Pongo. You can see Filbert pinning Pongo, which is normal, but then after, that's where I stop him....

[BBvideo 450,375:2busorz0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_VWon7Qe1c&feature=youtube_gdata[/BBvideo:2busorz0]

Doing more research, I have found that I've been right in stopping these interactions from playing out and continuing. I have stopped Filbert and have also reinforced better behavior with praise and talking happily to him. He's still gotten aggressive, but less frequently.

I have all the boys together in the CN. The little ones stay up in the pod in the corner where Filbert can't get to them (cuz he's a poor climber) and I put up the ramp so Filbert can't get to the second story (again, poor climber). I put food up on the top for hte boys too, but left the water down below, cuz the boys can climb along the cage walls easily enough to get away from Filbert if needed. Thus far, I've seen them on the bottom where Filbert more or less ignores them and if Filbert goes near them, they run off. They definitely know who the dominant rat is. I'll be keeping watch on them though and probably won't sleep well tonight. lol.