jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
That's also what's very scary, why in the beginning the rats recovered and now they aren't.
Hematuria ...caused by enterococcus faecalis.
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jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Talked to my vet today. She's got the preliminary report on the postmortem done on Radar at Guelph. The real bleeding is done in the urethra, not the bladder, or kidneys. There is some kind of trauma to one spot on the urethra, this is confirmed on two, Radar and Treat. It is not confirmed on Boo because my vet never went looking there but we are to assume it is. She tells me that it's very bizarre because the urethra is a very protected area of the body, it can't be "hurt" but external trauma and even by a toxin. So now we are back at thinking it's a virus.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I asked about vitamin K, she said it would be beneficial if it were a clotting problem but with the new results, it wouldn't do anything.
Godmother
Well-Known Member
That is so strange. This keeps getting more and more mysterious.
If it was viral, why are no other rats in your house sick, though? There's no way a virus couldn't spread.. And if it was something contained in their urine, as you mentioned before, then the other rats would come into contact with that during Out times.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I know... it's still undetermined. Hopefully soon we'll have a more definitive answer.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
My mom's Jazz died of pulmonary abscesses but during her post, my vet found that she too had a urethral bleed. This is very disappointing as we were hoping that her place was "clean" since she had not had anything since early June. But no... it's still there. It's like all our rats are walking time bombs. We are so devastated.
Godmother
Well-Known Member
Oh no, this must be so hard for you to accept. I hope that the exotic vet community will get curious enough to figure this out.
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
Oh no I was wondering if Jazzie's death was connected to the rest. I am so sorry.....what a terribly useless thing to keep saying I wish we could do something to help.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Sophie has passed from the same illness. It was very quick. This morning she was fine. I cleaned the cage, put them all back in at 10:30am. 2pm, I find her lethargic, a bit of blood but not all that much... and by 5pm she was gone. :sad3:
I don't know if I can take much more of this...
I don't know if I can take much more of this...
Godmother
Well-Known Member
It is so painful to see you go through this.
LA
Well-Known Member
Oh Joanne, there are no words to describe this. :sad3:
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
OMG Joanne....I am so sorry. This is a nightmare!
Jennw
Well-Known Member
oh, I am so so sorry. This is just getting worse and worse.
LA
Well-Known Member
Is there anyway to test a rats urine? Does anyone know.
I've done about an hour of research to find basically nothing. But I did find this. I hope you don't mind Jo. I will continue some research. This is something on Vitamin B deficincy. Not sure if it means anything though.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/2/237
Calcium Oxalate Excretion and Hematuria in Vitamin B6-Deficient Rats Fed Phthalylsulfathiazole1
W. K. Calhoun, R. B. Jennings and W. B. Bradley
American Institute of Baking, and Department of Pathology, Northwestern University Medical School, Chicago, Illinois
Weanling male albino rats were fed a vitamin B6-deficient diet containing 0.5% of phthalylsulfathiazole for periods up to 9 weeks. Profuse urinary excretion of calcium oxalate crystals occurred in all animals, and gross hematuria was common. Many of the rats receiving less than about 0.35 µg of the vitamin per gram of diet showed some degree of hydronephrosis and several had ureteral calculi. Histological studies showed the hematuria originated around foci of crystal deposition in the pelvis of the kidney with or without an associated hydronephrosis.
Calcium oxalate excretion, but no crystal deposition in the kidney, kidney damage or hematuria occurred when the deficient diet minus phthalylsulfathiazole was fed. A vitamin B6 level of 1.57 µg per gram of diet, which is about 50% higher than the generally accepted level required for growth, did not prevent the excretion of calcium oxalate crystals in some rats.
Supplementation with 5 µg of pyridoxine hydrochloride per gram of diet prevented urinary excretion of calcium oxalate crystals and was effective in preventing kidney damage and hematuria when phthalylsulfathiazole was fed.
The crystal deposits in the kidney contained sulfathiazole and the results of the experiments cited above indicate that the excretion of this compound in vitamin B6-deficient rats was directly associated with renal damage and hematuria.
Also there is this website - Rat Experts. She answers questions, not sure if you want to post there, maybe something.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pet-Rats-353 ... emales.htm
I've done about an hour of research to find basically nothing. But I did find this. I hope you don't mind Jo. I will continue some research. This is something on Vitamin B deficincy. Not sure if it means anything though.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/2/237
Calcium Oxalate Excretion and Hematuria in Vitamin B6-Deficient Rats Fed Phthalylsulfathiazole1
W. K. Calhoun, R. B. Jennings and W. B. Bradley
American Institute of Baking, and Department of Pathology, Northwestern University Medical School, Chicago, Illinois
Weanling male albino rats were fed a vitamin B6-deficient diet containing 0.5% of phthalylsulfathiazole for periods up to 9 weeks. Profuse urinary excretion of calcium oxalate crystals occurred in all animals, and gross hematuria was common. Many of the rats receiving less than about 0.35 µg of the vitamin per gram of diet showed some degree of hydronephrosis and several had ureteral calculi. Histological studies showed the hematuria originated around foci of crystal deposition in the pelvis of the kidney with or without an associated hydronephrosis.
Calcium oxalate excretion, but no crystal deposition in the kidney, kidney damage or hematuria occurred when the deficient diet minus phthalylsulfathiazole was fed. A vitamin B6 level of 1.57 µg per gram of diet, which is about 50% higher than the generally accepted level required for growth, did not prevent the excretion of calcium oxalate crystals in some rats.
Supplementation with 5 µg of pyridoxine hydrochloride per gram of diet prevented urinary excretion of calcium oxalate crystals and was effective in preventing kidney damage and hematuria when phthalylsulfathiazole was fed.
The crystal deposits in the kidney contained sulfathiazole and the results of the experiments cited above indicate that the excretion of this compound in vitamin B6-deficient rats was directly associated with renal damage and hematuria.
Also there is this website - Rat Experts. She answers questions, not sure if you want to post there, maybe something.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pet-Rats-353 ... emales.htm
Since the rats who had previously shown the main symptom seemed to get better when put on Baytril, would it be worth medicating everyone, even if they're not showing symptoms as yet? I know medicating that many rats is going to be alot, but maybe it'd be worth the try.
I tried doing some research, but there are very few things that seem like they would only cause urethral bleeds as a real symptom. Has your vet done any x rays for things like kidney stones, or has she found any during the necropsy? I don't know if they can do it on a rat, but for Socs' renal failure, they did a CBC/electrolyte blood panel from a basic draw. I wonder if they can run one for the rats, see if anything is off the charts. It could also tell you if they were having a gross deficiency of something. Can they run a urinalysis of any sort from a rat? I can't remember how much they need in order to run one, or if a rat's bladder is even large enough to accommodate a full sample.. If you have one that is sick, or if she can get samples during the necropsy, and then maybe you can compare those to one that's not showing any symptoms..?
I'm just tossing out all the ideas I can come up with..
Were all of Mamarat's rats in the same cage like your's are, or are her's more spread out?
I tried doing some research, but there are very few things that seem like they would only cause urethral bleeds as a real symptom. Has your vet done any x rays for things like kidney stones, or has she found any during the necropsy? I don't know if they can do it on a rat, but for Socs' renal failure, they did a CBC/electrolyte blood panel from a basic draw. I wonder if they can run one for the rats, see if anything is off the charts. It could also tell you if they were having a gross deficiency of something. Can they run a urinalysis of any sort from a rat? I can't remember how much they need in order to run one, or if a rat's bladder is even large enough to accommodate a full sample.. If you have one that is sick, or if she can get samples during the necropsy, and then maybe you can compare those to one that's not showing any symptoms..?
I'm just tossing out all the ideas I can come up with..
Were all of Mamarat's rats in the same cage like your's are, or are her's more spread out?
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
In the pathology report for Boo, they have not found crystals or stones.
The next time we have "a bleeder" during vet hours, we will bring them in, have their blood drawn and have the rat pts.
I've been doing a lot of research as well, but mostly, it seems like a couple of different internal parasites can cause hematuria.
I really do appreciate everyone doing their own research and bringing it up here, I always mention it to my vet. They are all helpful in a way, even if it's to eliminate it from the list of causes.
LA, I've checked that site Allexperts. I'll give it a try, who knows, maybe they've seen this before.
The ones that have died were immediately put on Baytril, my Sophie had been on Baytril for over a week as well. I don't think it's working at all, and when I asked my vet about putting all the rats on Baytril, she didn't think it would help either. With the numbers my parents have, it would cost them $200 a week. So that's something we can't really do right now unless we know for sure that it helps keep them alive.
The next time we have "a bleeder" during vet hours, we will bring them in, have their blood drawn and have the rat pts.
I've been doing a lot of research as well, but mostly, it seems like a couple of different internal parasites can cause hematuria.
I really do appreciate everyone doing their own research and bringing it up here, I always mention it to my vet. They are all helpful in a way, even if it's to eliminate it from the list of causes.
LA, I've checked that site Allexperts. I'll give it a try, who knows, maybe they've seen this before.
The ones that have died were immediately put on Baytril, my Sophie had been on Baytril for over a week as well. I don't think it's working at all, and when I asked my vet about putting all the rats on Baytril, she didn't think it would help either. With the numbers my parents have, it would cost them $200 a week. So that's something we can't really do right now unless we know for sure that it helps keep them alive.
Fidget
Senior Member
It couldn't be something ingested (even if it was something the sick kids particularly liked and ate more of than the others) as both Jeannine & Jo are getting it but not Nicole. Even if it was something Jeannine & Jo used but Nicole didn't then it would affect other homes outside of the Rat Shack.. Couldn't be 1 particular head of lettuce or bag of blocks unless Jeannine & Jo shared it.
How are your apartments arranged? Is it Jeannine on the bottom, then Jo, then Nicole on top? I guess that would rule out something in the air or vegetation outside.
So it must be a combination of things, some contagion (with multiple kids getting it) - that only affects kids with a certain predisposition (as not everyone is sick), and maybe can lie in wait for a trigger (as the kids aren't all going down at once)..
maybe if you could find something the affected kids all had in common?
Have you compared blood types? a tendency toward some bleeding disease (tho I guess that would be genetic and beyond the realm of your tests)?
I'm sorry, Like everyone I've been hunting the 'net hoping for something to help, even to suggest.... I haven't been speaking up but you haven't left my mind, my heart, my prayers. This is utterly terrifying & heartbreaking, and appearing at the last place any of us want to see it to the people who most shouldn't have it. It kills me (like everyone else I'm sure) that I can't help those who have helped me & my babies & so many others so much....
I guess all the above has already been considered, I just don't know what to offer.... I can only send you my deepest sorrows for your little ones lost, and pray for your strength thru this and that you find answers or at least it goes away before it touches any others.
How are your apartments arranged? Is it Jeannine on the bottom, then Jo, then Nicole on top? I guess that would rule out something in the air or vegetation outside.
So it must be a combination of things, some contagion (with multiple kids getting it) - that only affects kids with a certain predisposition (as not everyone is sick), and maybe can lie in wait for a trigger (as the kids aren't all going down at once)..
maybe if you could find something the affected kids all had in common?
Have you compared blood types? a tendency toward some bleeding disease (tho I guess that would be genetic and beyond the realm of your tests)?
I'm sorry, Like everyone I've been hunting the 'net hoping for something to help, even to suggest.... I haven't been speaking up but you haven't left my mind, my heart, my prayers. This is utterly terrifying & heartbreaking, and appearing at the last place any of us want to see it to the people who most shouldn't have it. It kills me (like everyone else I'm sure) that I can't help those who have helped me & my babies & so many others so much....
I guess all the above has already been considered, I just don't know what to offer.... I can only send you my deepest sorrows for your little ones lost, and pray for your strength thru this and that you find answers or at least it goes away before it touches any others.
Fidget
Senior Member
Way out in left field I'm sure but I read this:
Researchers believe they have discovered why a bacterial lung infection (Streptococcus pneumoniae) is so lethal in the early stages, and it's not what medical authorities had thought.... The study reveals for the first time that a toxin released by bacteria causes severe bleeding in the lungs by patients with pneumococcal pneumonia. It is the bleeding, the authors argue, not inflammation as once thought, which makes the infections deadly. The same study also reveals why antibiotics often fail to help prevent early death. http://www.urmc.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=1632
Have the blood tests ruled out Strep infection? When I read this it made me wonder if a different Strep infection could be causing something similar in the liver? (your vet said she found no inflammation) Since bacteria are mutating all the time could this be some known Strep that could affect the liver (like Streptococcus bovis?) that has undergone a mutation and is getting passed around there?
Researchers believe they have discovered why a bacterial lung infection (Streptococcus pneumoniae) is so lethal in the early stages, and it's not what medical authorities had thought.... The study reveals for the first time that a toxin released by bacteria causes severe bleeding in the lungs by patients with pneumococcal pneumonia. It is the bleeding, the authors argue, not inflammation as once thought, which makes the infections deadly. The same study also reveals why antibiotics often fail to help prevent early death. http://www.urmc.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=1632
Have the blood tests ruled out Strep infection? When I read this it made me wonder if a different Strep infection could be causing something similar in the liver? (your vet said she found no inflammation) Since bacteria are mutating all the time could this be some known Strep that could affect the liver (like Streptococcus bovis?) that has undergone a mutation and is getting passed around there?
