jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Guelph has requested all of Radar's body, not just tissues and they have also requested the Oxbow and Harlan... they are testing it.
A full post with Guelph is $250
A full post with Guelph is $250
Hematuria ...caused by enterococcus faecalis.
- Thread starter jorats
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Dahlas
Well-Known Member
It will be worth it if you get some answers and can stop this from happeing again....oh I hope you find out.
But wow that is a lot of money......
But wow that is a lot of money......
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Ya... it's coming out of my son's Uni fund. Shhh...
mamarat2
Well-Known Member
Had one of the path's here look at the report Jo, and he said it comes down to it that the overall questioning in that report is what is causing the anemia/bleeding/lack of clotting. Pretty much what you already knew. Couldn't say any more than that, sorry.
Godmother
Well-Known Member
I hope that no other rats become affected. If one does, I wonder if your vet would consider a long-shot treatment?
If the cause of the bleeding turns out to be warfarin, maybe orally-provided Vitamin K would work. Evidently that works for humans. Warfarin "thins" the blood by interfering with Vitamin K, which is necessary for production of the blood clotting factors.
Here's what I found on a web site about using Vit K as an antidote to too much warfarin: injections of Vit K and "pigging out" on shrimp. Web site is http://www.flounder.com/warfarin.htm
"Warfarin was used in the 1950s as an anticoagulant for victims of heart attacks and strokes, but gained fame when it was used to treat President Dwight D. Eisenhower after his 1956 coronary (while in office).
Therapeutic doses of warfarin are minuscule: 2mg to 10mg for a 100kg person. The actual dosage depends upon an individual's diet and metabolism, as well as body weight. In fact, body weight is not a major factor. A 150kg person may require 2mg while a 75kg person may require 10mg for the same therapeutic effect.
There are very few good alternatives to sodium warfarin treatment. In some cases, a doctor may prescribe low-molecular-weight heparin (LMWH). I do not know the issues about long-term effectiveness of LMWH, but the fact that it requires two injections per day, subcutaneous, at fairly precise 12-hour intervals, precludes its use for most people. I've done it in the short-term (post-surgical recovery while the warfarin is "ramping up"). I wouldn't want to have to do it every day.
Warfarin impairs the creation of one of the significant blood clotting factors, prothrombin. Vitamin K is an important factor in the synthesis of prothrombin clotting factors in the blood. Because of this, Vitamin K is considered an "antidote" for warfarin overdose. If a child or pet inadvertently consumes a warfarin-based rodenticide, the usual treatment is injections of Vitamin K. This is simplified greatly because the actual effects of the warfarin can be measured fairly accurately by measuring the blood clotting rate. This "prothrombin clotting time" or "protime" measurement is necessary for anyone on warfarin prophylaxis therapy. Tests may be done as frequently as daily to as infrequently as monthly.
The complementary problem for people on warfarin therapy is that it is necessary to keep a balanced intake of Vitamin K. Many foods are high in Vitamin K, including shrimp and spinach, and an unbalanced intake of Vitamin K will cause the prothrombin times to vary wildly. This is not to say that foods containing Vitamin K must be avoided; merely that the intake should be reasonably constant, so the warfarin dosage can be adjusted to compensate for it. For example, an occasional spinach salad is not considered dangerous, but a spinach salad every night for two weeks would not be a good idea, particularly if there was a prothrombin-clotting-time test taken just at the end of those two weeks. Besides the risk that the sustained Vitamin K intake would cause (due to lowered clotting time), an adjustment made to the dosage followed by a discontinuance of the intake would result in a significantly raised clotting time. So the key is to maintain a reasonably constant Vitamin K intake.
When my prothrombin clotting factor (measured in units expressed as the "INR", an acronym for the International Normalized Ratio) goes above a number my doctor and I have agreed upon, I can pig out on shrimp. Below that value, it is not a good idea, and if I drop below another level, it could be seriously dangerous to pig out on shrimp. Note that my physician and I have agreed upon certain values, based upon my medical condition. If you are on, or are using this for someone who is on, anticoagulant therapy, you must consult your physician regarding which values are appropriate. For someone on prophylactic anti-stroke therapy these numbers would be quite different, for example. Consult your physician for your particular case."
From what I read on this web page, it would be great to feed that cage some shrimp and spinach. If anyone is on abs, it would be important to replenish their gut flora with probiotics to prevent further loss of Vit K production.
If the cause of the bleeding turns out to be warfarin, maybe orally-provided Vitamin K would work. Evidently that works for humans. Warfarin "thins" the blood by interfering with Vitamin K, which is necessary for production of the blood clotting factors.
Here's what I found on a web site about using Vit K as an antidote to too much warfarin: injections of Vit K and "pigging out" on shrimp. Web site is http://www.flounder.com/warfarin.htm
"Warfarin was used in the 1950s as an anticoagulant for victims of heart attacks and strokes, but gained fame when it was used to treat President Dwight D. Eisenhower after his 1956 coronary (while in office).
Therapeutic doses of warfarin are minuscule: 2mg to 10mg for a 100kg person. The actual dosage depends upon an individual's diet and metabolism, as well as body weight. In fact, body weight is not a major factor. A 150kg person may require 2mg while a 75kg person may require 10mg for the same therapeutic effect.
There are very few good alternatives to sodium warfarin treatment. In some cases, a doctor may prescribe low-molecular-weight heparin (LMWH). I do not know the issues about long-term effectiveness of LMWH, but the fact that it requires two injections per day, subcutaneous, at fairly precise 12-hour intervals, precludes its use for most people. I've done it in the short-term (post-surgical recovery while the warfarin is "ramping up"). I wouldn't want to have to do it every day.
Warfarin impairs the creation of one of the significant blood clotting factors, prothrombin. Vitamin K is an important factor in the synthesis of prothrombin clotting factors in the blood. Because of this, Vitamin K is considered an "antidote" for warfarin overdose. If a child or pet inadvertently consumes a warfarin-based rodenticide, the usual treatment is injections of Vitamin K. This is simplified greatly because the actual effects of the warfarin can be measured fairly accurately by measuring the blood clotting rate. This "prothrombin clotting time" or "protime" measurement is necessary for anyone on warfarin prophylaxis therapy. Tests may be done as frequently as daily to as infrequently as monthly.
The complementary problem for people on warfarin therapy is that it is necessary to keep a balanced intake of Vitamin K. Many foods are high in Vitamin K, including shrimp and spinach, and an unbalanced intake of Vitamin K will cause the prothrombin times to vary wildly. This is not to say that foods containing Vitamin K must be avoided; merely that the intake should be reasonably constant, so the warfarin dosage can be adjusted to compensate for it. For example, an occasional spinach salad is not considered dangerous, but a spinach salad every night for two weeks would not be a good idea, particularly if there was a prothrombin-clotting-time test taken just at the end of those two weeks. Besides the risk that the sustained Vitamin K intake would cause (due to lowered clotting time), an adjustment made to the dosage followed by a discontinuance of the intake would result in a significantly raised clotting time. So the key is to maintain a reasonably constant Vitamin K intake.
When my prothrombin clotting factor (measured in units expressed as the "INR", an acronym for the International Normalized Ratio) goes above a number my doctor and I have agreed upon, I can pig out on shrimp. Below that value, it is not a good idea, and if I drop below another level, it could be seriously dangerous to pig out on shrimp. Note that my physician and I have agreed upon certain values, based upon my medical condition. If you are on, or are using this for someone who is on, anticoagulant therapy, you must consult your physician regarding which values are appropriate. For someone on prophylactic anti-stroke therapy these numbers would be quite different, for example. Consult your physician for your particular case."
From what I read on this web page, it would be great to feed that cage some shrimp and spinach. If anyone is on abs, it would be important to replenish their gut flora with probiotics to prevent further loss of Vit K production.
Godmother
Well-Known Member
I feel stupid putting up suggestions.... of course, your vet is probably consulting like mad with the experts.
I'm just thinking that, since the situation is so desperate, trying the shrimp/spinach/Vit K would be worth a shot since it could not possibly harm the remaining rats in that cage.
I'm just thinking that, since the situation is so desperate, trying the shrimp/spinach/Vit K would be worth a shot since it could not possibly harm the remaining rats in that cage.
LA
Well-Known Member
Godmother, I wouldn't feel stupid, with everyones ideas maybe we can come up with something.
Alicemcmallis
Well-Known Member
Don't feel stupid at all Godmother. Every idea is worth throwing out there, and if it doesn't help in this instance it may help someone else along the line with their pets. I'm finding everything you're posting fascinating actually. 
mamarat2
Well-Known Member
Godmother has a good point with the warfarin/Vitamin K info. I actually had two vets look at this and one has not gotten back to me yet, but both were questioned the bleeding out and no clotting thing. The path said very much does not sound viral.
If I were you I would seriously have a talk with the vet to see if there is something you can administer at home (vitamin k) and keep on hand in case it shows up again in the off vet hours.
If I were you I would seriously have a talk with the vet to see if there is something you can administer at home (vitamin k) and keep on hand in case it shows up again in the off vet hours.
mamarat2
Well-Known Member
Just seems like we keep circling around the clotting factor.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Discussing it like this really does help. I'm very touched to see how many are trying to help me with this.
I'm going to buy some brussel sprouts!!
I'm going to buy some brussel sprouts!!
LA
Well-Known Member
Not sure about this and what water you use. Is it possible that it's the water.
Rats drink so much everyday and if you drink the same water, what may not bother you may bother them because they are so small.
Rats drink so much everyday and if you drink the same water, what may not bother you may bother them because they are so small.
twitch
Well-Known Member
LA said:
but why only the few from that one cage are affected? unless its the water bottle and there are multiple bottles and the ones that were affected perferred all the same bottle. maybe it missed a thorough cleaning? new bottle?
Alicemcmallis
Well-Known Member
I thought these rats were from different cages, not all from the same cage?
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I know, it doesn't click... Why only them? Why not the other two cages I have in the same room? Same cleaning, same toys, same water, same food. But why just the one cage? ...so far. I'm beginning to think it's viral. Like my vet said, it could be in their urine and so because the others don't live in the same cage, they are not as affected?
Alicemcmallis, all mine were from the same cage except for Mielle, at my mom's, two were in the same cage while April was in another.
Alicemcmallis, all mine were from the same cage except for Mielle, at my mom's, two were in the same cage while April was in another.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Mielle is questionable, she was not doing well to begin with, she was 38 months old so I suppose this could have been a natural death for her or not. But we can't say for certain with her. So that would make the other 4 from the same cage only.
At my mom's one male is questionable, we can't say for certain that Louie had hematuria. He bled like crazy in the cage, he was lethargic but we could not pinpoint where the blood was coming from... a healed toe wound or bladder?
At my mom's one male is questionable, we can't say for certain that Louie had hematuria. He bled like crazy in the cage, he was lethargic but we could not pinpoint where the blood was coming from... a healed toe wound or bladder?
mamarat
Well-Known Member
Louie recovered after 3 days. I put him on Baytril right away. When Oscar bled it was before the revolution and he recovered the next evening.
