Godmother
Well-Known Member
Oh, Nic, that is bad news. I hope that Simon will be OK.
Hematuria ...caused by enterococcus faecalis.
- Thread starter jorats
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Fidget
Senior Member
So many of us have experienced UTi's, but without the fear it's anything but a standard isolated case. No way can you just accept it as that at the Rat Shack in any kids for a long time to come with what you've been thru, but I sure hope it's just a stubborn UTI ...or even some other individual internal problem with both Simon & Henry (god, who'd have ever thought any of us could hope for an individual horror for any kid? :cry3: ). I'm so glad to hear both both seem to be feeling ok at least.
It's odd that antibiotics are not clearing it up but there are all kinds of other reasons why an individual could have that going on that antibiotics may not fix, with kids at the Rat Shack of course everyone's first fear is going to be the CURSE. 2nd thought UTI, but maybe there's some other individual internal thing? God, it sounds like I'm hoping there's some isolated internal problem with the 2 of them (and I guess I am under the circumstances), like I'm willing to throw them to the lions to save the rest - but I'm not, honest. I want to hear that both Henry & Simon have got all better & stopped bleeding and are showing no signs of any further problems cause they are more important & precious than any of the others at the moment.
I can't even imagine what you're going thru head-wise & heart-wise there, how you manage to keep your minds guilt-free when you have not only the worry about your sick baby but a hope that if it's not a UTI it's something physiologically wrong with them alone... Only this CURSE could make a bad thing the lesser of 2 evils.
My hopes & prayers for Simon & Henry, and for all of you at the real Rat Shack. :heart:
It's odd that antibiotics are not clearing it up but there are all kinds of other reasons why an individual could have that going on that antibiotics may not fix, with kids at the Rat Shack of course everyone's first fear is going to be the CURSE. 2nd thought UTI, but maybe there's some other individual internal thing? God, it sounds like I'm hoping there's some isolated internal problem with the 2 of them (and I guess I am under the circumstances), like I'm willing to throw them to the lions to save the rest - but I'm not, honest. I want to hear that both Henry & Simon have got all better & stopped bleeding and are showing no signs of any further problems cause they are more important & precious than any of the others at the moment.
I can't even imagine what you're going thru head-wise & heart-wise there, how you manage to keep your minds guilt-free when you have not only the worry about your sick baby but a hope that if it's not a UTI it's something physiologically wrong with them alone... Only this CURSE could make a bad thing the lesser of 2 evils.
My hopes & prayers for Simon & Henry, and for all of you at the real Rat Shack. :heart:
dubchick
Well-Known Member
might it be an alergic reaction?
Nickelrat
Well-Known Member
Great news! Simon hasn't bled since that day! :happydance: Therefore I am so hoping that Shelagh guessed it right and that it was only a UTI! :joy: But I will still check on him every hour. LOL
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
As for Henry, he's still bleeding a few drops a day but he's very active and quite happy. :joy:
Could this mean the virus is dying off? weaker? mutating into something not fatal?
I've been 4.5 weeks without a bleeder so far. :joy:
Could this mean the virus is dying off? weaker? mutating into something not fatal?
I've been 4.5 weeks without a bleeder so far. :joy:
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
That is great news...I hope this is all over
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Unfortunately, this still means that we will never be open to more rats. We must wait this out completely. This "thing" has shown us such unpredictability that we can never really rest or feel completely secure that there won't be another "case" at some time or another.
And at this point, it looks like Guelph will never reach a diagnosis. :sad3:
And at this point, it looks like Guelph will never reach a diagnosis. :sad3:
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
Sad but a very wise decision....at the shelter we can have cats who are "carriers" never getting the disease or only a very mild form of the disease that they spread..... I feel that is what is going on here....someone in your group is carrying and brought this "thing" in. The rats you have now will build a resistance but anyone new could be affected........The only worry is that any rats that get old, run down, stressed my then lose the ability to fight this and then develop the disease.....we see this when we send someone to get spayed or neutered...we have to be so careful with them....their resistance is lowered and they then can pick up the things that up until then they have been able to withstand...
I guess that is anther good reason why quarantine and being careful about how many and who you bring in....
I know since you have gone through this Jo I have been more careful with my babies.....I used to just bring in a foster rat or some babies but not anymore...I have to consider the rats I have now......and it is not worth the risk.
I am so glad everyone things look like they are getting better....I pray it continues.....Give them ALL a kiss and cuddle from me....
mamarat
Well-Known Member
I wonder if Henry might be the carrier. His two sons got sick here first but both recovered. And Jazz was in Henry's colony.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
The final results are in and it's clear that Guelph just threw in this diagnosis because they really are at a loss.
Even my vet was very disappointed that they couldn't find the real problem.
They are calling it cystitis. Yep... a bladder infection. :doh: My vet told me there's no way a bladder infection would cause a fatal hemorrhage. The inflammation in the urethra was pretty much disregarded. There is absolutely no sign of it being viral and they are saying it's bacterial. We need to continue with the bleaching of the cages.
anic:
On a more very severely disappointing note, Radar had pinworms as well as CAR Basilius.
Pinworms are quite common in large colonies and will probably never be eradicated. Although I did read in several places that a 5 week treatment of oral Ivermectin has worked so we are doing that with all our rats, the bleaching will also help with this.
CAR Basillus is more of a problem... it's one of those things that you really can never get rid of. All you can do is keep treating the symptoms. It's a serious lung infection that waxes and wanes. I've been wondering why some of my rats have been on and off sick lately, always on and off meds. I never had ANY problems when I was nebulizing on a regular basis.
Guelph has recommended that we treat ALL rats with Novotrimel. But my vet really doesn't want to do that because at least two of our rats have had a serious allergic reaction to that med. One of them died from it.
Radar also had kidney disease... which is common in older rats. It's a good thing I feed my crew a low protein diet. This must have slowed the progression of it.
So... that's what it is.
Even my vet was very disappointed that they couldn't find the real problem.
They are calling it cystitis. Yep... a bladder infection. :doh: My vet told me there's no way a bladder infection would cause a fatal hemorrhage. The inflammation in the urethra was pretty much disregarded. There is absolutely no sign of it being viral and they are saying it's bacterial. We need to continue with the bleaching of the cages.
anic: On a more very severely disappointing note, Radar had pinworms as well as CAR Basilius.
Pinworms are quite common in large colonies and will probably never be eradicated. Although I did read in several places that a 5 week treatment of oral Ivermectin has worked so we are doing that with all our rats, the bleaching will also help with this.
CAR Basillus is more of a problem... it's one of those things that you really can never get rid of. All you can do is keep treating the symptoms. It's a serious lung infection that waxes and wanes. I've been wondering why some of my rats have been on and off sick lately, always on and off meds. I never had ANY problems when I was nebulizing on a regular basis.
Guelph has recommended that we treat ALL rats with Novotrimel. But my vet really doesn't want to do that because at least two of our rats have had a serious allergic reaction to that med. One of them died from it.
Radar also had kidney disease... which is common in older rats. It's a good thing I feed my crew a low protein diet. This must have slowed the progression of it.
So... that's what it is.
lilspaz68
Well-Known Member
oh Jo, CARB?
I'm going to put up links for others who are curious as I am sure you have read them already
http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/car_bacillus.php
I did find one thing in ratguide...
Since CAR bacillus infection is often seen in conjunction with M. pulmonis infection, it may help to treat the rat with broad-spectrum antibiotics that typically help to control the signs of that disease. If the rat is not responding then switching to a different antibiotic(s) may be appropriate. Nebulized antibiotics, or a combination of nebulized and oral antibiotics, may prove to be more effective in threating this bacteria.
http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/endoparasites.php
Helminths
* Nematodes (roundworms, this includes pinworms)
o Syphacia muris (Oxyurid known as rat pinworm), most common parasite seen in rats. The life cycle is direct and requires only a short time, 11-15 days for completion of the cycle. They are migratory moving after ingestion to the large intestine and then to the perianal area to deposit eggs. These eggs are then disseminated into the surroundings, surviving weeks, where they can be reingested or ingested by another rat. Age, sex, and immune status are factors. Weanling rats, particularly males, may be most affected. These numbers diminish with the age of the rat. This parasite is not considered pathogenic unless there is heavy infestation or in the immunocompromized, and then symptoms may include: constipation, fecal impaction, and rectal prolapse. Humans have their own species of pinworm, and are considered a wrong host for the rat pinworm because its life cycle can not be completed.
Nematodes (pinworms, roundworms)
Treat with one of the following drugs; fenbendazole, piperazine, or ivermectin.
I'm going to put up links for others who are curious as I am sure you have read them already
http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/car_bacillus.php
I did find one thing in ratguide...
Since CAR bacillus infection is often seen in conjunction with M. pulmonis infection, it may help to treat the rat with broad-spectrum antibiotics that typically help to control the signs of that disease. If the rat is not responding then switching to a different antibiotic(s) may be appropriate. Nebulized antibiotics, or a combination of nebulized and oral antibiotics, may prove to be more effective in threating this bacteria.
http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/endoparasites.php
Helminths
* Nematodes (roundworms, this includes pinworms)
o Syphacia muris (Oxyurid known as rat pinworm), most common parasite seen in rats. The life cycle is direct and requires only a short time, 11-15 days for completion of the cycle. They are migratory moving after ingestion to the large intestine and then to the perianal area to deposit eggs. These eggs are then disseminated into the surroundings, surviving weeks, where they can be reingested or ingested by another rat. Age, sex, and immune status are factors. Weanling rats, particularly males, may be most affected. These numbers diminish with the age of the rat. This parasite is not considered pathogenic unless there is heavy infestation or in the immunocompromized, and then symptoms may include: constipation, fecal impaction, and rectal prolapse. Humans have their own species of pinworm, and are considered a wrong host for the rat pinworm because its life cycle can not be completed.
Nematodes (pinworms, roundworms)
Treat with one of the following drugs; fenbendazole, piperazine, or ivermectin.
Well, that sure is a diappointing end result.
On the pinworm thing, because this is the first that I have heard that they are common in larger colonies, did you see any signs of them? I did read what Shelagh posted about the symptoms, but thought I would check with you as well to see if you noticed anything in your guys.
CARB is not a surprise to me. I think that most rats in Ontario are probably carrying it, and we just assume all the time that it is a myco infection and treat for it. Which I am not criticizing at all, but we really don't do the diagnostics to determine if it is myco or CARB because of the cost and whatnot.
The couple of times that I have heard of people doing ELISA testing, they have come back with a positive result for it. Treating as a myco infection has the same results, so we do that and hope for the best. Again, I think that most rats will have it and we mostly won't even know about it. Not much you can do other than what you are already doing for them. Possible CARB won't prevent me from taking in rats, most of mine probably have it as well. I mean it sucks big time, but rat health is sucking big time on many different levels. At this point, I am just rolling with the punches.
Sorry that it has taken so long for this to come back the way it has for you.
On the pinworm thing, because this is the first that I have heard that they are common in larger colonies, did you see any signs of them? I did read what Shelagh posted about the symptoms, but thought I would check with you as well to see if you noticed anything in your guys.
CARB is not a surprise to me. I think that most rats in Ontario are probably carrying it, and we just assume all the time that it is a myco infection and treat for it. Which I am not criticizing at all, but we really don't do the diagnostics to determine if it is myco or CARB because of the cost and whatnot.
The couple of times that I have heard of people doing ELISA testing, they have come back with a positive result for it. Treating as a myco infection has the same results, so we do that and hope for the best. Again, I think that most rats will have it and we mostly won't even know about it. Not much you can do other than what you are already doing for them. Possible CARB won't prevent me from taking in rats, most of mine probably have it as well. I mean it sucks big time, but rat health is sucking big time on many different levels. At this point, I am just rolling with the punches.
Sorry that it has taken so long for this to come back the way it has for you.
LA
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry Jo
lilspaz68
Well-Known Member
Luna had pinworms but as it mostly doesn't affect the rat or the person too much I don't worry. She's the only one of my rats that had a fecal test. I am sure I must have CARB in my colonies but since most of my rats seem healthy, with the odd chronics, and flareups I can live with it.
Mostly my oldies will have little flareups or my chronics who have had resp issues most of their life (Bear, Rennie, etc), but the majority are fine.
The diagnosis about the bleeding was very inconclusive, and after all that effort on your part I am sorry about that.
Mostly my oldies will have little flareups or my chronics who have had resp issues most of their life (Bear, Rennie, etc), but the majority are fine.
The diagnosis about the bleeding was very inconclusive, and after all that effort on your part
I am sorry about that.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Oh phew! Shelagh, Vanessa, you made me feel better about the CARB. I really thought I had jeopardized my rats by taking so many in. So you guys wouldn't put yourself in quarantine and not take in anymore rats due to the CARB? I wonder if my routine nebulizing just kept it all in control with my past crew. I stopped doing the routine nebulizing to see if it had really made a difference, now I know it had. When, I'm more settled and not so freaked out with what's been going on, I'm thinking of starting it up again. But I may ask for a different meds. Vanessa, you had success with Gentamicin right? I wonder if that may be good for bladder infections too? Just found this on it: Gentamicin is effective against a wide range of bacteria. It is effective against bacteria that infect the bloodstream, respiratory tract, skin, sinuses, ear canal and bladder.
As for the pinworms, absolutely no symptoms at all. My vet said that usually there are no symptoms and it never becomes a problem. They live off of each other quite comfortably. Too bad, I'm not comfortable with them. :roll:
As for the pinworms, absolutely no symptoms at all. My vet said that usually there are no symptoms and it never becomes a problem. They live off of each other quite comfortably. Too bad, I'm not comfortable with them. :roll:
lilspaz68
Well-Known Member
No I would keep taking in rats despite the incidences of CARB in the pet rat population. You are still doing a lot more good then leaving them in some horrible situations which are certain death or neglect for life.
A virulent form of Myco is what would shut me down, if ALL or most of my rats came down with it...but not the CARB.
I was thinking about you and the nebulizing, and wondered if its been in your colonies for a long time and you controlled it with your routine?
I will be getting a nebulizer soon, and am going to need lots of advice on how to use it
A virulent form of Myco is what would shut me down, if ALL or most of my rats came down with it...but not the CARB.
I was thinking about you and the nebulizing, and wondered if its been in your colonies for a long time and you controlled it with your routine?
I will be getting a nebulizer soon, and am going to need lots of advice on how to use it
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
I would like to hear more about a nebulizer if you have time Jo....what they are for, how to use them etc....anything to help the ratties live longer
