Hematuria ...caused by enterococcus faecalis.

[SQ]

Very sorry the lab didn't find out what is wrong.
As previously mentioned, not taking in new rats until after your present colonies is a sad but wise decision.

 

[Vanessa]

So you guys wouldn't put yourself in quarantine and not take in anymore rats due to the CARB?

Not at all. I really do think that it is probably affecting the vast majority of rats in rat saturated areas and it isn't going to end anyone's lives any more prematurely than myco is. You do what you do to prevent myco flareups and jump on flareups with antibiotics as quickly as possible and you will probably keep it as successfully under control as myco. I think that you would have to give up rat keeping altogether if you want to avoid CARB, plus just doing the PCR or ELISA testing on every single rat is just going to bankrupt you.
If you were a breeder, then THEY should be doing that testing before even considering breeding, but...well we all know that hell will freeze over before breeders make that a standard for their ratteries. I don't think it is feasible for rescuers to do it if we want to continue helping rats.

Vanessa, you had success with Gentamicin right? I wonder if that may be good for bladder infections too? Just found this on it: Gentamicin is effective against a wide range of bacteria. It is effective against bacteria that infect the bloodstream, respiratory tract, skin, sinuses, ear canal and bladder.

Yes, I have had success both with injecting it and nebulizing it. It is good drug, but one that is not prescribed that much probably because the only way the average rat owner can administer it is SQ and many can't/don't want to do that, and many don't have nebulizers. It cannot be administered orally.
I would consider it definitely worth a shot for you to try it out.

 

[Godmother]

Yes, this is very disappointing.

Looks like I will need to overcome my feelings about the rats' reactions to the nebulizer. Maybe I can condition them to be less frightened by it, use a huge container, etc.

I am not so sure about bladder infections not being fatal, though. (I don't see that as the cause of your rats' death, of course, because the histology report showed hemorrhaging in many different organs.) When three of my girls (sisters adopted from a student who got a pet-store surprise litter) suddenly became sick with a bladder infection, one of them was in bad shape. She was limp, pale and cool on the bottom of the cage. Her toes, normally a healthy red-pink, were white. There was a lot of blood in the urine. Zithro fixed the girls up quickly, but I think that at least one of them would have died if she hadn;t been treated promptly. I had the very good fortune that the vet was still open and that he saw her within half an hour of me finding her like that.

 

[jorats]

Godmother, I think you might be right about the bladder infection potentially being fatal. Henry has been given Novotrimel and he seems to have stopped bleeding, although, it had slowed right down so we aren't sure if it's the meds or not. If it is the meds, this would mean the bacteria causing cystitis is baytril resistant and this is probably due to our constant use of it. I think we really need to look at a different med now.

 

[jorats]

As for nebulizing, way back when, all my rats were dying very young, 9 months old, 15 months old 20 months old. Then I did a drastic change to their diet no more Suebees mix or dog food, kept the new generation slim and happy and busy and I started to nebulize. My vet is the one that put me onto the idea of a pulse treatment. We would nebulize injectible Baytril for 14 days, then wait 2 months and start again. I did this for over 2 years. We had less sickness and our rats were reaching 2 to 2.5 months old. Then when I started to feed a low protein diet, our rats are reaching 3 years and beyond.

Basically, my set up is exactly like the link Dahlas found.

The Nebulizer:

The particles of the nebulizer should be under 5 microns. Any higher and the rat may not inhale it. Too low, like 0.3 micron and the inhaled particle is usually exhaled immediately, therefore not really giving the rat the full effect of the medication.
Most nebulizers today are made for adults as well as infants. If your nebulizer accommodates infants then it should be ok for rats.
I use the Proneb Ultra by Pari.

The Chamber:

You will need to create a chamber to go along with your nebulizer.
This chamber should be big enough to put multiple rats in case you need to do multiple rats. Also a bigger chamber won't be as scary as a small chamber.
As well, in a bigger chamber, there will be less of a chance for your rat to overheat.
I use a rubbermaid container. I added a hole at the lower left side to fit in the nebulizer. The nebulizer is then attached to the compressor via a small tube. This tube will need to be replaced if used too often as well as the nebulizer/cup. The recommended timeframe is 6 months but longer if not in constant use.
I also added many holes at the top of the container at the opposite end of the hole for the nebulizer. And more holes were added on the container itself again, on the opposite side of the main bottom hole. It is important to have these holes away from the main nebulizer hole so the mist/particles have to circulate through the hole chamber before finding it's exit.

Here are the pics of my nebulizer:

 

[anita1216]

One quick thing about tubing on nebulizers, it should be replaced every six months despite amount of use. If you are cleaning the tubing afterwards with hot water, even warm water it weakens it. You might be able to extend it to eight months, but that would be pushing it.

Also make sure to change the filter on your nebulizer every six months.

Sorry, I work for a home medical supply company and we find that changing tubing like clockwork ultimately gives better results. Its the same thing with making sure the filter is changed, adds life to the machine.

 

[Vanessa]

Here is my setup, which works very well for up to about four rats at a time...

 

[jorats]

One quick thing about tubing on nebulizers, it should be replaced every six months despite amount of use. If you are cleaning the tubing afterwards with hot water, even warm water it weakens it. You might be able to extend it to eight months, but that would be pushing it.

Also make sure to change the filter on your nebulizer every six months.

Sorry, I work for a home medical supply company and we find that changing tubing like clockwork ultimately gives better results. Its the same thing with making sure the filter is changed, adds life to the machine.

Oh yes, this is a must! We also change the cup.

 

[SQ]

I nebulized for a short period of time but doubt I will ever do it with healthy rats in a container again ... maybe one rat at a time on my lap ?

My rats found the nebulizing to be very stressful and I believe this stress caused health problems. The pics I saw of jorats rats being nebulized show the same conditions so I know I was doing it correctly.

I believe that nebulizing isn't recommended for rats with heart problems and we seem to have a lot of CHF in rats in the martimes.

For example, after being nebulized, Caleb went overnight from being a healthly active boy with an undiagnoised, symptom free heart condition to having full blown CHF. His heart didn't actually become enlarged until months after he became deathly ill.

So if you do decide to nebulize, do so with caution and realise that you may cause more harm than good.

 

[Godmother]

Vanessa, I notice that the rats in your nebulizer don't seem freaked out. Any secrets? I wonder if the smaller number in the container, as well as large holes, makes the container get less hot. I recall that SQ's container was very warm and humid, even though we did the recommended 4 min on, 2 min off, 4 min on. Maybe that's too long? I need to do a serious re-think.

Mine get anxious when they are put into a container. They must be thinking "vet visit" or maybe they just don't like uncertainty. I'd have to do something to make the container seem different and non-threatening.

As for oral antibiotics and the danger of organisms building up resistance to Baytril, I wonder if alternating Baytril with Zithro and Chlorpalm would help. I've wondered about that. My Tia is on Baytril for life, and her sisters probably should be too, but I worry about resistance.

 

[mamarat]

When I have a rat on long term meds, after 1 month, I stop for a few days then start again. I find it helps keep the med stronger in their bodies. This is on advice from my vet. And another way is to give meds for 2 weeks, stop 1 week and so on. This is the pulse treatment. And is not for very sick rats, though.

 

[jorats]

In our nebulizing chamber, our rats never got warm, more like damp. They also were not terrified although they look it, but what they would do is all pile up in the opposite corner and have a big grooming session. Mamarat would hide sunflower seeds in hers and the rats were always too busy looking for it before they had a chance to get scared. I would leave mine on for 8 min. But keep the rats in for a full 10 minutes.
Another thing you can do it leave your rats in their cages and aim the cup near the cage. It won't be as direct but they will certainly benefit from it.

 

[Vanessa]

Vanessa, I notice that the rats in your nebulizer don't seem freaked out. Any secrets?

Nope, no secrets. It is always on a per rat basis. I noticed that they would be more comfortable on a whole if they were not in there alone, but it was definitely up to the individual rat. I have had rats that have been totally freaked out, so with them I would attempt it two times to see if it would get better and if it didn't I would discontinue. Most of my rats have been curious about it, but have quickly settled down to groom themselves or just chill like they were in a sauna.
I would always find it to be damp, but it remained at about room temperature. I never noticed it getting particularily warm. Their body heat might make the temperature raise a bit, but I never noticed a significant rise.
I would never nebulize if a heart condition is suspectecd, as it would be detrimental, but it is ideal if you have a myco issue or suspect that the rat has abscesses within the lungs. Gentocin is a good drug for the abscesses.

 

[Dewi]

One quick thing about tubing on nebulizers, it should be replaced every six months despite amount of use. If you are cleaning the tubing afterwards with hot water, even warm water it weakens it. You might be able to extend it to eight months, but that would be pushing it.

Also make sure to change the filter on your nebulizer every six months.

Sorry, I work for a home medical supply company and we find that changing tubing like clockwork ultimately gives better results. Its the same thing with making sure the filter is changed, adds life to the machine.

Thanks for this tip. Do you know why the tubing needs to be changed after 6 months.

 

[Fidget]

Not to diminish the horrore of this by any means but it's somewhat like the flu with humans. In that you can't avoid it unless you isolate yourself. Some don't get it, most that do just recover, but some have it go into their chest and have to get antibiotics. Not something you normally die from but some can if they are already compromised or it makes them too weak to fight something else they might have going on.

I'm so sorry they didn't give you an answer that there was a fix for.
I guess if you closed down your house and did no rescues that would be safest.
Would be safest for us humans to quit our jobs, hire someone to do the grocery shopping, and never leave the house.
I'm just surprised that something like that exists and it's not better known and the Rat Shack didn't encounter it before this.
I'm so sorry Jo. Every kid you lost was irreplaceable and loved deeply. I guess all you can do in light of this is count your rescues and know that so many more are really living being with you than have died from this.. and they all count their days by quality not quantity.

Maybe you can put your old & sick together apart from the rest and do a clothing change & major hand clean before being with them if that would help at all?

 

[Vanessa]

I'm just surprised that something like that exists and it's not better known and the Rat Shack didn't encounter it before this.

That's the thing though, we probably all have. I have done a lot of research on it over the years, there is plenty of information on the internet for it. Rabbits will suffer from it as well, and it is common in them. It is just something that is very expensive to properly diagnose because you need to do the ELISA/PCR testing and the last time I got a quote for that, for only one rat, it would have been close to the $300 mark. The only other way to confirm is post mortem, as Jo has done.
Since the symptoms and treatments are similiar to myco, vets just give us the myco treatment and it seems to keep it under control. I know that Dr. Munn is very knowledgeable about CARB, so when treating rats for myco she does keep in mind that we could be also dealing with CARB. Dr. Luckwadlt at Amherst knows a lot about it as well, he was the one who first brought it up to me and gave me the details. The vets at Links Road didn't have a clue that rats could even have it, until I faxed them pages of information from the internet. That is why I don't go there.
It freaked me out when I was given the diagnosis that one of my boys could have had it years ago (I didn't end up getting the testing done), but when I got to thinking about it, and how awful myco is and that you can't get much worse than that, I just thought that we all better come to accept it if we are going to help as many rats as possible out there.
I mean... I hate to sound as if I am not taking it seriously, because I definitely am. But until the sources of where the rats come from start testing for CARB in their breeding colonies (one of the people that I know had rats test positive was a breeder, and they didn't stop breeding after getting the results back), and stop breeding rats that test positive for it, we will probably not ever get a proper handle on it. I have never had anything run through my home where all the rats got deathly ill and had their lifespans cut considerably, like you would see with Sendai or SDA, so if anyone here has it, I must be doing ok at keeping it under control. If it were something that reduced the lives of my rats significantly, and wasn't able to be controlled, then I would shut my house down and not bring in any other rats. That hasn't been the case, so I will continue to take in homeless rats.

 

[jorats]

When my rats were dying at a young age a long time ago, I asked my vet to do an ELISA test. She talked me out of it. She told me that no matter what it is the treatment will be the same so why spend that much money for a diagnosis. It was $300+ back in 2003. Instead we thought of a different approach and I started the nebulizing and it has worked very well.
When we got that diagnosis for Radar, I was shocked but not my vet, to her it was normal and expected in most myco/pulmonary abscessed lungs.

 

[LA]

Nebulizing brings up a concern I have in humans and possibly rats. So I put it to you guys to maybe think about it or put my concern to rest in rats.
The back story. I have bacteria in my stomach called H Pylori. Basically what it does is create a lot of heartburn. I have never had a day of heartburn in my life until my early 20s where I had to straight for 2 weeks. So they put me on some super strong antibiotics. I got it back. Again I was put on antibiotics, after that round I was in to see my doctor for something else and he asked how my stomach was. I told him that it was great I hope it was gone now and he told me he doubted it. I was upset, why had I taken these strong antibiotics to only have it come back. It was then I decided not to take them anymore. I did tons of research, I found out my system was in general acidic, which helped this bacteria take over my stomach. I found ways around it, eating better, using herbal means. I have gone to councelling which has helped with my stress level. So all in all since I have made these changes I have only had one day flareup in 6-8 months. I think because I'm lactose intolerant taking dairy out has helped. Anyways the reason I told you all of this is that after the second time and doing some research it was said that if you didn't get rid of it properly it could become resistant to antibiotics. Well I knew what taking the very strong antibiotics did to my body and I wasn't going to go through it again especially if they determined that it was resistant and give me even stronger ones.

I believe that antibiotics have their time and place, but I also think our society as a whole overuses them. Doctors are more willing to push pills then find the reason behind the problems. Is my bacteria there, yes it most likely will be, but changing my diet, reducing my stress (via councelling) has made it almost non exsistant 99% of the time.

So here's my concern. Could that possibly happen with nebulizing. You are giving antibiotics on a consistant basis. Is it possible that it could start up a resistant strain of something we can easily get rid of right now. Is that why possibly baytril is not helping as much anymore with the URI's? That Doxy is need when baytril doesn't work, or both of them, or either on a consistant basis?

 

[Dahlas]

I have to say I have the same concerns with antibiotics...I don't put any of my family on antibiotics unless absolutely necessary.........My children have never taken them yet...and I have only taken them once.....
I have seen people put animals on antibiotics "incase".......I would never do that....I would only use them if I had to.....that is just me......
I don't know anything about nebulizing so I can't have an opinion on it yet....but some on here have used it and have had great results with it....

 

[jorats]

This is definitely a concern. But I have found that with my last crew, if they did develop an infection of some kind, oral Baytril did help. Having to add doxy or Zithro is not because the bacteria is resistant to Baytril, it's more for a double whammy and hit the infection hard.
Rats develop pulmonary abscesses, most meds do not penetrate the abscess wall in the lungs. So basically you are trying hard to slow it's progression and hope to control any other symptom. In Boo's necropsy, he had small pulmonary abscesses, it had already started, he was only 10 months old and never sick a day in his life but yet, lung disease had already started.
Our original crew all died of huge lung abscesses, some to the point where it would harden and detach part of the lung and fall into the abdomen. With the crew where we routinely nebulized, there were hardly any abscesses, none! And now with this crew, and no nebulizing, it has already started.
Since we have access to Zithro and Doxy, I'm not too worried about a resistance to Baytril because I can always add the other meds.
All my rats that have reached over 3 years of age, all were nebulized for at least a year to a 1.5 years of their life with me.