Velo's Intro Thread [Advice pls?]

[Velo]

So I have decided to start up a thread here, namely as a way for me to record what happens with my intros but also to get any advice and encouragement as this is my first experience with intros and I have a few anxiety disorders that make the whole thing slightly more difficult.

So anyways! We have the residents, 3 spayed females who are +/- 7.5 months old. Rizzy - my current alpha, Theia & Pika. They are also extremely high energy & somewhat fearful, prefer not to be held, and scream quite a bit.
The new guy, Rocky, is a +/- 10 month old neutered male who is fear-less, sweet, alpha personality and easy to handle.

Rocky came home about 6 weeks ago and I have been working on intros for roughly 5 of those. We had two incidents where I had to stop intros for about a week - Rizzy got inured and I wanted her to heal up. I'm still not sure if they were accidental or not, though I'm assuming they were.

Rocky used to be super puffy all the time. He has finally gotten to the point where he isn't puffy the whole time, but he does sometimes puff up when he's close to one of the girls.

Things have been going slow but decent lately.
On the 25th, Rocky & Rizzy got into a spat and Rizzy got a decent cut along her side, under her armpit and by her belly. So I decided to let her heal up and everyone chill out and we started again last Tuesday. I have done intros everyday since then, 20-30 minutes without any injuries. We do intros on the bathroom floor, which is neutral. Yogurt & another tasty treat, sometimes an empty toilet paper roll or small box to sniff around. I'd like to put something else in the room... A toy(s) or something that they can focus on more. I don't want to do a hide yet though, cause the girls will just hide the entire time.
They will eat next to each other peacefully, but don't seem to do anything else.. No playing or grooming, etc.

They are slow and could probably be way better. I have this issue with helicoptering or over-parenting or whatever you may want to call it (As in, I've been breaking up/separating Rocky from the girls a LOT and without any real reason besides not wanting another cut on Rizzy.. or the other girls!). I think things would be better if I wasn't so terrified that Rizzy would get hurt again (I think I read way too many horror stories about serious injuries during intros) but I'm not sure HOW to do it!

So I guess for now, any advice on how to not be paranoid about injuries and how to step back would be helpful. ~_~
(What's your signal to interfere? Do you never interfere?)

Also! Rocky does this thing were he sits on top of the girls (individually) and just like.. Doesn't move? It's kind of strange. He's not peeing on them and he's not grooming them. He just sits on them and it looks like he's squeezing them when he does it. It freaks me out cause his head/arms are always by their belly/neck area. I haven't seen any videos, pictures or information on what exactly that is. So I'm not sure if I'm seeing dominance or aggression? I'll try to get a video of him doing it.

Thank you! =^w^=

 

[jorats]

Rocky is a bully and this can't progress until Rocky stops wrapping himself over them.
This is what I would like you to do... continue to stop any kind of confrontation like you are already doing. His wrapping them like that is a one move away from a serious slice.
The next thing you are going to do is find a super yummy treat, the crappier the better, cheezies or something like that... when you see Rocky walk towards a girl and decides to turn away, cluck your tongue and give a small piece of food to Rocky. Do this every single time that he, on his own, turns away from a girl. This will counter condition him wanting to overpower them.
What you want to see is Rocky going over to the girls and lying next to them, even putting his head under them is ok, but he can't go over them. When you know he's about to go wrap one of them, pick him up slightly, say no, move him slightly away and hug him with your hand. A full body hug for a few seconds. Rocky is stressed and is dealing with it badly. The hand hug is like a thunder shirt for dogs. It should bring him comfort. And report back and any videos will be appreciated.

 

[Velo]

Thank you for clearing up the "wrapping" behavior for me, Jo. I really appreciate it, I couldn't find an answer to it anywhere but I knew it made me feel worried!

I have been redirecting him to yogurt when he walks away (yogurt is his favorite but I will get some junk food soon and work on my clicking). I didn't put 100% of the info to start but to add:
- We had a 30 minute intro tonight which went "well"
- I did let him "wrap" the girls as I hadn't seen this/still didn't know what it meant
- I pulled him off Rizzy once, when after he wrapped, they both went into a boxing stance
- I also pulled him off Pika, because the "wrap" made me uncomfortable, she's my tiny/scared girl
- Finally I separated him & Theia, as Theia was shoving her head under his belly (Theia wtf you aren't alpha even??) and this seemed to make him frustrated / puffy.

So when do I let them interact? How do I know? It seems he either does:
a)Sniffs butt and then wraps. Boxing pose may or may not insue
b)Immediately wraps or
c)The girl screams and runs away and he walks off.
d)Sometimes he does approach then either sniff butt or do nothing and walk away (without the girl scream and run)

It's hard to understand because he really is so sweet!
Is it okay if I move him to my lap and pet him instead of doing the Body Hug? I can do that too, I've just been yoinking him out of the situation and petting him instead.

Also some background:
Rocky has been through a lot. You may already know. I sometimes forgot how much he has gone through... From the home he was in, to being loved by Peggy, to being with a new girl for only a few nights (and we are not sure if he was properly introduced or not?) to back to being with Peggy to being brought home to me... Sometimes I forget it's "only" been 6 weeks.

Okay um also some video footage from the other night. Things are so nice in the beginning (but I feel like the beginning is longer each time we intro!!) Also I will try and get a video tomorrow, unfortunately it's just me though so monitoring/video recording is tricky.:
Link

 

[jorats]

Oh that's the poor boy that went through all those changes. Well, he's doing very well then considering what he's been through. And this might explain the wrapping. He may not be doing it as a bully but as a claim. I've noticed that rats who have been moved around a lot, become a little possessive of things that are given to them. It's almost like they are worried they are going to lose it yet again.
I wouldn't put him on your lap because you don't want him to equate wrapping to awesome mom time cause he'll just keep doing it.
What I would do is have your hand close to him all the time and when he goes near a girl, if he's about to climb up, put your hand as a wall and gently move him off and hand hug. Let go and see what he does if he turns away, click and treat. If he tries again, again, hand block him, move him away and hand hug.
Knowing it's that Rocky, is good! I feel better about his movements now.
BTW, the term wrapping is not a real one. I just used that word because to me, it best describes what they seem to be doing.

 

[Velo]

Yes he has been through a lot. And I forget how much sometimes! I brought him to the vet for a check up a while ago, he seemed so depressed when I put him in the carrier in the car, like he thought "Oh well, here we go again". But man was he happy when we came right back home.

Alrighty so no go for the lap, that makes sense. I'll try out what you said for awhile. But I mean, at some point isn't he going to have to interact with them in some way besides being blocked or walking away on his own?

I will try and get a video of the "wrap" tonight (and let that be the last time I let him do it), so you can see exactly what it looks like. The term "wrapping" definitely suits the behavior though!

 

[jorats]

The thing with animals, they don't need to interact to know they are there. They smell them, they sort of see them but they definitely hear them. If he's taught that life is better if you don't climb them, then that's a win win. Rats interact in many ways. They have really good communication, vocal (we can't hear it) and body language. So not letting them touch each other doesn't change their or stops their communications.
Once you no longer block him and you will know when it's ok, you will see a slight change in him, then you move intros on familiar ground. That's where you need to let them be and sort things out but be very alert cause the first couple of days can be tense.
I like doing my intros on table tops. I'm super close to them, my body is there, my hands are on the table with them and my breath is close. Rats rely heavily on energy, smells, sounds and touch. Eyes not so much. So when I do intros I talk to them gently, my hands are around, my energy is calm and content... I usually do that for a week and then when all goes well, I move them back to the rat room and play area. If it all goes well there for a week, I scrub down the main cage and move them in.

 

[Velo]

Hm, okay. So I should be able to tell when he is fine to move on with the intro. We've been in the neutral zone for so long... I'm sure it'll be longer than a week till we are ready to move on.

Unfortunately I definitely couldn't do a table top intro, the girls would fly right off it. XD I can definitely apply the same concepts on the bathroom floor though... Rocky isn't the fastest rat luckily.

 

[jorats]

You should be able to tell but with videos, we'll help you.

 

[Velo]

I am so exhausted from a 13 hour work day plus intro!
Here is a video of the entire 25 minute intro:
http://youtu.be/E3obrSd0_cs
The wrapping occurs around the 8 minute mark... can't remember exactly.
I will update tomorrow with exact times of interesting stuff.

 

[Velo]

http://youtu.be/E3obrSd0_cs
http://youtu.be/E3obrSd0_cs

 

[Velo]

Er okay I have no clue but I guess that link didn't work... I'll try again tomorrow. http://youtu.be/E3obrSd0_cs

 

[jorats]

I'm going to comment on the first video and then I'll watch the second.
You will need to charge the clicker because you are too slow with your treats, which is fine, with dogs we always charge the clicker. So by charging, you could have him on you, click and treat, click and treat, for about 10 times. Make sure the food is super small or they will over fill and get sick of it.
Also, don't have so much food out. One dish and use a food that is yummy but not that great to them.
The wrapping, yes, that's exactly it.
I find that you are redirecting him too fast, you are not giving him the chance to make a choice. And I think I actually saw him want to be picked up by you, almost like go to the girls and wait to be picked up and when you stopped picking him up, he resorted to climbing you. So you are quite special to him. During intros, you don't want him on you at all.
Overall, your girls are not scared of him at all. This is great news, this means Rocky is not much of a bully.
You've got the hand hug good, but place your hand the other way, fingers at the head, palm at the butt and gentle squeeze hug. And you can do this with your chattering girl in the corner, this brings them comfort.
Your girls in the corner, that's them finding a happy place, they ate, they explored, they are done. For me, during intro, that's where I want to see my rats, during that stage. Now it would have been interesting to see Rocky with them in that corner. That's when you can gauge how the dynamics are. Would he have wrapped them? Who would he have chosen to wrap? Would have just settled in the middle like your wheelie tail girl?
Oh... I tried to get the names but couldn't quite hear. You have a girl who runs the wheel? She has a super curly tail, her name is lizzy? or Izzy? The siamese is? And the masked girl? The masked girl is always protesting when Rocky comes around...that's no big deal. She's just saying f off will ya. Wheelie tail girl is your alpha in the group. She's very outgoing and is curious about Rocky and wants to get to know him. Siamese looks quieter, shyer.

You mentioned a few times how it's difficult especially capturing the behaviour fast enough, that's why I like table top intros. It's a small space and you are already at their level.
Oh and I love that you treated all of them in that perfect moment of being together calm and content.
Ok, off to watch the next video.

 

[jorats]

Oops, never mind they are all the same vid. All those links worked for me.
I also want to say that I didn't see Rocky get puffy much. When a rat is upset and puffy, they look twice their normal size, very piloerect. When they were eating nose to nose, that is good! You want them enjoying their food so close to each other.

 

[Velo]

Oh no it's the same video, I just kept attempting to post it. ~_~ When I checked on my phone and iPad it looked like the link hadn't posted at all, just a broken image thing, now that I am on my computer I see it posted like four times. XD

The clicking is hard. XD I've never done it before, and I actually find I'm not great at clicking. I think I need to buy one of the handheld ones or something. I will try this "charging" thing. I read a few articles on it cause I didn't quite understand but I think I get it now. I will have to reassess the treat.. I got the cheezies and cut them as small as I could but he wasn't interested in the "heat of the moment". Maybe some shelled sunflower seeds?

Yes definitely too much food, I agree with that. I'm trying to find something they like as much as yogurt because I hate to give them so much... Maybe creamed corn. I'll go only one plate!
The video was helpful for me too, cause I realize a lot of it is a knee-jerk reaction. (The picking up part) I did get better at not grabbing him up / holding him after a while, but I definitely need to re-learn that reaction myself. So he's going to have to learn that he can't stay with me. I'm sure he'll hate that at first but hopefully he will look for the comfort from the girls.

I'm glad that the girls aren't scared and they are happy in the corner! Thank you, it helps so much, I literally had no clue if that was horrible or not. X;
I will let him decided what he wants to do with them in the corner tonight and not interfere. I honestly blocked him about 3x as much as I have been last night because I was scared that the "wrapping" was very dangerous and a big no-no. If you don't think it's a super dangerous situation I will back off of it.

Pika is my wheelie girl ^_^ She's the small one with the gray split cap.
Rizzy is the black capped/variegated girl, I assumed she was alpha currently because she tries to chase down Rocky and he picks her out of the group. Rizzy and Pika look similar on video, but you can tell who's Pika cause of the tail.
Theia is the smeeze, she is the shyest, she seems to feel safe with Rocky though. I know he wrapped her in the video, but she's constantly placing herself next to him.

Maybe I could put a table in the bathroom or something. I'm not sure. It would help, but I have tried the bathtub and a playpen and those both went much worse. They seem good on the bathroom floor so I just need to work on my reactions. It's hard for me to catch good behavior, and understand what deserves a reward. There's no way I could trust those girls on my kitchen table though, they'd be gone in a flash. XD

Rocky has really improved on puffy. Now that you said it, I don't think he actually puffed at all last night... He used to be non-stop puffy so it's definitely an improvement. C:

Thank you so much, I definitely have my work cut out for tonight.
Recording an intro is so weird when you're by yourself. I'm glad it recorded decently though. I wish I had more than 25 minutes for intros. Maybe this weekend I can go longer, I'd love to see how things went for a long period of time.

 

[jorats]

I wouldn't use a real clicker, that might scare the rats. It scares some dogs.
But instead, when you see him run past a girl, you can say "yes" and treat. You don't need to click if that feels foreign to you. Say it in a high pitch voice. High pitch is heard better for some reason, even in dogs.
Also, head to butt petting helps calm them, you can do that instead of the hand hug. You do it a lot to Rocky so you are already comforting him, so that's good. It's pretty instinctual.
Ok, so Pika is wheelie girl. Rizza is the squeaker isn't she? When Rocky goes near? If Rocky does pick her out of the group and she chases, him then yes, I'd say she's your alpha. Or rather, the mom of the group. Pika looks really happy in your video. Theia seems quieter and maybe a bit more stressed and if she seeks Rocky out for closeness and comfort, that's really really good.

Overall, I'd say your intros are great. Let me see him go at them, when he runs to them, don't stop it, let me see his plan.
When was it that he hurt one of the girls and which one was it?

 

[Velo]

Okay, I will try yes, that would be much easier haha. I just don't know how to click, and although the microphone picked it up pretty well, my clicks are pretty lame and sometimes just don't even come out. ><'
So only when he runs past a girl? Or when he does something decent like some butt sniffing then walking away?

I think I can get the hand hug down. I forgot to look up pictures or videos or anything to figure it out first. Now that you described it I think I can do it. My not great hand hug seemed to work well. ^_^

Rizzy has now taken to being vocal when Rocky approaches, she didn't used to. But yup that's her. Pika is vocal in general, she might have squeaked during video too. "Mom" is a much better description than Alpha, they aren't really into the hierarchy thing.. I think that's why they have these issues with figuring it out, nobody in the group is that dominant anyway.
Pika does definitely seem happy. She's such a sweet and happy girl in general. C:
And Theia definitely you are right.. She's typically like that though, it's not weird for her to be shy. She loves eating yogurt right next to him. The part in the video where I said "she was ballsy", she shoved herself right up next to him, like cheek to cheek and ate with him. I thought he might find that "dominating" but he didn't mind.

I'll just record the whole thing again tonight and we will try and get some running and whatnot. From past experience, he runs and then wraps. Maybe it will change though. I got to get the camera (my phone heh) to see that corner better too...

He hurt Rizzy twice. The first time was the 3rd intro I think? A very long time ago, when we tried the playpen. Playpen is not a good place for them to meet. This was back in the day when he was a super puffy guy who probably thought he wasn't gonna be with me for long anyway. It happened super fast, a rat-ball that I broke up. There was a hunk of fur and a bit of blood.
Here's her scab (1 or 2 days after)

The second time was 25th of September.. The last time we did intros before I took and break and now we've been going strong every day for a week. He wrapped her, then they did a mini-rat ball which was short. Rizzy came out with a scratch along her side, under her armpit & by her belly. It wasn't very deep but it did bleed (not much, just enough to change the color of the skin). Don't have a picture unfortunately..

 

[jorats]

Yes, treat him each time he turns away from a girl.
So the most recent one was not that long ago. That's a bummer. These types of injuries are freak accidents. The bottom rat zigged when she should have zagged. But, the issue here is that he wants to be alpha of the group and she's not wanting that at all.

I have to say... I really hate the words dominance and alpha. Those words have been so tarnished in the past with force trainers. But I don't know what other words to use. I have a few intro videos on YouTube but I use the words alpha and dominance a lot and I cringe each time I hear myself say it. It's just awful and so bossy. I'm more into positive reinforcement now and calming effects and counter conditioning.
I used to say that the hand hug was dominating your rat but that's not it at all. It's actually calming the rat. Temple Grandin a renown behaviourist. She came up with the squeezing the animal for comfort several years ago. At the time, she was studying cows and herds. But the squeezing/hug/petting works for everyone. Just recently, I read an article that said when you pet your cat from head to butt, you are actually de-stressing the cat. Same thing with a rat. In fact, same with humans right? Hugs can be awesome when you need one. lol
If you can check out my intro vids on YouTube but disregard my use of the word dominance. I'm jorats on Youtube. The videos are from 2011. Called Operation intact or something like that. There are a few of them.

 

[Velo]

I got the vibe that both were accidents... But I'm not sure how to really deal with that. Like you said, he wants to be the alpha but I do get the vibe that she's like "What?? What do you want, leave me alone!" and has no real interest in doing the dominance dance. So I don't know how they can reach a point that works for both of them? I think that's why she's taken to squeaking and running away when he approaches. It's frustrating cause she's a lover, not a fighter.

I agree on the words. It gets so confusing. I see some rats that definitely do mirror "alpha" and "dominance" but they aren't all the same. My girls definitely don't act the same as some of the "alphas" I have seen.
There is no doubt to me that the pet/hug is calming. I even did a total crap version of it last night and I could tell Rocky calmed down. And he loves the head to butt pet. C:

I actually watched all of your videos before I re-started intros a week ago. ^_^ Might give them another watch now that I can apply it better.

Oh with charging the clicker, I still do this with the "yes" method? Should I do it before we even go in the bathroom or is it better to do in the very beginning of the intro?

 

[jorats]

Charging the clicker can be done before so that he's paying attention to you only and not the intro.

 

[Velo]

not super happy about... anything in this really. He does a lot of wrapping and I miss plenty of opportunities to say "yes" and "no". I am also having a hard time finding a small treat he will take.


http://youtu.be/Z9i20kjyYqI


Warning, from about the 50 second mark to 1 minute 25 second is a little loud as Rizzy knocks my phone over and I try to fix it!

I'll assume the link works even if it doesn't on my phone. XD