Velo's Intro Thread [Advice pls?]

[Velo]

Ya I was definitely frustrated! X3
That's why I didn't give up though, I genuinely felt it could end well if we kept going.
At least with the wraps, he does it like crazy in the beginning but it's looking like I can make him stop (you'll see the trend when you watch last night's video)
Okay so the "wall" is really only successful when he hasn't wrapped yet, right? Cause I don't think I can "wall" him off of a girl if he's already gotten on her. I imagine it will be a lot of walling at first then. I will try this tonight. I'm getting better at moving him quickly and not touching him besides the move but I do speculate that he might wrap to get me to touch him period. (Geez what a mommas boy)

I just tried doing what you said with the mouth/neck thing. He didn't like it LOL!

I think Theia really likes him too. They seem to get on well. She was my alpha originally, maybe she still is and Rizzy is just a bossy Omega. I don't know, I guess it really doesn't matter.
Yes I like when they are all in the corner together. We see more of that on Saturdays video...
I'll nix the ground video from now on. You can check out the end of the ground one for yesterdays video since they are in the hidey house more but I think my butt blocks a lot of it any ways. The problem is the handheld runs out at 35 mins HA.

I think I might try some more lap time at the end. I like to try and keep him off of me as much as I can for the first 20-25, but at the end they seem all happy on the lap.

I will try to create a more "fun" environment tonight. I'll keep the house in there too and we'll do some hidden treats and stuff. Might make the handheld hard but I can just put it down for that. My video skills are improving. ~_~

Oh Rocky, why must you be difficult. As he bruxxes in my ear and kisses my nose. :ilike:
LOL
Peggy I will work on my mean voice
XD
I need Fred around to say no, he says it and everyone takes it seriously haha!

 

[Velo]

Intros went about the same. Wrapping, climbing me, interacting with the girls. He went back to wrapping a bit after I got out the house, but quit again. After the video ended, we all stayed out a bit more. Rocky was sleepy and trying to get to his transport cage, so I grabbed out some fleece and he laid under it and was sleepy. The girls were under it too, being all hyper, and he didn't mind. So that was good

 

[jorats]

Saturday's video... I don't like that beginning with his persistence and hanging on tight. That's not good.

That was great at 10 min. He didn't mount them. He thought about it but went for the butt sniff instead and lick lick and no wrap. That's good! And I really like how he want back to sniff Theia and was going to wrap her but licked her head instead.
I'm pretty sure your squeaker was Pika in the corner. The two girls were huddled for comfort.

Ugh at 17 min. He really means business with his wrap.
He was really persistent. I don't like that. No, you need to stop those wraps. So we keep doing bathroom intros until he stops that.
I must say, I'm really surprised how well it went with that tunnel. The grooming Theia was really sweet near the end.

 

[Velo]

Ya it's hard to describe the wraps and how they feel. That's why it took me so long to get some decent video because even I can tell what he means so I don't like to let it happen.

It's his go to move though. ):
He did manage to flip/half flip Rizzy twice tonight. I haven't gotten to review the video yet, but I believe they started as wraps. It's hard for me to keep up with the grabbing and no-ing.

When he's with Theia I don't worry much. You will see some great moments with those two when the video is up.

Things got a bit more nutty with the house tonight. He got some light wrapping in but I didn't let him take it as far as I have (to get video).

I think (since things are pretty much staying the same) I might leave the camera on the ground for tomorrow's intro. Makes for poor footage, but I need to focus more on getting it into his head that wrapping is NOT okay.

 

[jorats]

Definitely... from now on, all your focus will be on not allowing anymore wraps or flips. Did you try the hand wall and sweep?

 

[Velo]

I tried it pre video. It worked well enough, he kept trying but I could sweep him away. I'm not fast enough with the cam in hand though. Sometimes I read him wrong though so pre-emptive moves are hard. but easier without the cam so I will focus on that. I will keep a ground video just for reference.

 

[Velo]

Haven't watched yet but here's tonight's intro
http://youtu.be/blB830cZU9E
And a short bit after
http://youtu.be/S4T2caOVaOc

 

[jorats]

At 8:39... That's the no! we want.
It does look like he's learning with the Nos.
Pretty soon, you will read his body language really well and be able to judge which one to stop and which ones to let go. Like if he's grooming them, that's good.
At 14:23, stop that after 10s. He was down there too long and Rizzy was getting very uncomfortable.
The girls get so comfortable and content with the house.
At 18:22, he didn't wrap Theia, he was licking her. If you can and I know it's really hard, make sure it's a wrap first before saying no.
When you asked if you should break that up or not... cause his wrapping is getting the flip and that's what he wants. I feel like if Rizzy will let him flip her, that might be the game changer we need. But! if that flip goes bad, it can go very bad so you would have to control the flip by being very near and ready to pull him off. If you do allow the flip, he would sit on her belly and stay there for a few seconds, his head would be near hers, let him decide when he wants the pin to stop. He's doing that for a reason. And this might be the breakthrough. But if you are not comfortable with that then we can continue to keep stopping it.
That was sweet with the cat toy and both Rocky and Pika playing.
Nearer the end of the video, I'd say that went very well. We are progressing.

What you could try and forget the video for this because you'll need your full attention on them, make your enclosure even smaller so you can just sit down and reach everywhere. Have the house there and just watch and control his movements. Ah, there you go. At the very end you did it. Sit down and be at their level.

 

[Velo]

My No is getting better, I practiced before ha!
Why is he doing the belly thing so long? Intimidation? I'll be better about 10 seconds though.
I did see in the video it was a lick, didn't catch it in person though. -_-;

The video was rough.. I am not positive if he was doing his traditional wrap when she flipped or if he was trying something new. She did get on her back though. I don't think I'm comfortable with not stopping the wraps.
Ya I just watched.. Around 19:40, he wasn't doing a wrap, he was by her butt, not her head. Seems like a different move to me.
What's the "very bad" that can happen when she is on her back? If she is on her back, don't pull him at all period, he decides when?

I'm pretty happy with how things went overall. There were a lot of good moments. Maybe I will try bringing my wall in more, to block out the bathtub. Get rid of that distraction. He seems to do better when we are all cramped in and I sit with them. They do get behind my back where I can't all too well grab but I can manage. I will leave a ground cam so I can review... I need a diary of this. XD

 

[Velo]

He did pee on Theia's head too. Isn't that a "your mine" type of behavior? XD

 

[jorats]

The worst that could happen during a flip, getting her belly ripped open. But I have never had it happen here and I've done dozens and dozens of intros. I've only heard about it.
So it could be scary and now that I think about it, probably not a good thing for you to allow to happen. Lets stop all wraps and flips.
When he's buy her butt, he's sniffing and licking her vagina to gain information like her age, her sex (obviously) and if she might be going into a heat cycle. If he's there too long and that gets you nervous, try to redirect and distract him.

 

[Velo]

Yikes.
So for now, I only allow butt sniffing and grooming.
So the idea is that they will bond through the sniffing and grooming and being together everyday and eventually he won't want to be aggressive or dominating? I'm just wondering because of the "they have to work it out amongst themselves" phase. He will be like how the girls are with each other, the way they wrestle?

I feel like he definitely has enough info on Rizzy now, geez. I wonder if he's confused because they are spayed, don't think he has met a spayed girl before.

 

[jorats]

Whenever my boys would meet or be introed to spayed girls, it took a couple of weeks for the boys to keep checking to see if the girl will eventually go into her heat cycle. So it could take a while and it may continue with each meet up. But ya, eventually we want them to just be chill and have fun with each other.

If you could do their intros twice a day, that might speed things up.
And is his cage really close to theirs? That would be a good thing.

 

[Velo]

Okay at least I understand that now!
There is so much information out there about intros. And half of the standard info I have found does not apply to my situation at all! @_@

I work 13 hours a day for 5 days a week so twice a day isn't possible, except maybe on the weekend. I'm usually really busy squeezing in everything that can't be done during the workweek though. -_-;
I'll try it out though. I have Wed-Sun off this week. Will be running a lot but on days I am not I will commit to trying two!

They live in a double critter nation. They can't see each other really because of that but about as close as you can get. He has the bottom, they have the top. They switch sides once a day, when they have run around the ratroom playtime (so like at least 30-60 minutes). They definitely are used to each others smells and sides by now, I've been doing it since he came home (7 weeks). Rocky always sleeps in their favorite cube when he's on their side, the girls always pile up in his favorite hammock when they're on his side. ^_^

 

[hopefloats]

His demeanor is totally different with Theia....He is calm, he doesnt sniff as long and he does not seem puffy. He appears to be a different rat with her, but she is far more confident than the other two because I didnt notice her squeaking at all. It looks like Theia challenges him, kindly. She sticks her head under him wanting that grooming but he ignores it, she walks on.

Rocky is a momma's boy that is why he is so needy! He does not want you to far away.

I think under the house with theia, i wouldnt of broke that up (near the beginning of the house). It was different, he was almost looking like he was going to groom not so much bite, when he had the girl on his side I would of left it. You will build excitment if you keep chasing him, and they are running from it, You will have to find a happy medium. Him sitting with his teeth on his back, bad sign. him pinning and no teeth involved, them squeaking, is ok. You need to see where his mouth is. Granted that can change but when his mouth is not on them I wouldnt move them or correct him. Be ready but dont intervene unless you have to. around 22 mins where you thought he was biting a tail. that was a good moment with them, she was protesting and he was being polite.

I like boxes on their side, so they can go in it but not be hidden from me, so i can judge the attitudes from them.

so a box like that one.

 

[Velo]

Rocky and Theia get along much better I agree. They are my Yin & Yang, which is what they look like when they butt-sniff each other in circles. XD

Rocky is such a momma's boy it's wild. Fred gets jealous, because when Rocky goes to sit on Fred's shoulder, if I walk by Rocky will jump off him to get to me.

You are right, I didn't need to break him up with Theia. Bad understanding on my part, I can see he was trying to be nice.
It's hard, he never used to do any pinning without teeth / grooming, so I have quick reactions to assume it is a toothy wrap.
I'm sure I will read him wrong a few more times. -_-
I think Rocky has a fascination with Pika's wheelie tail. He's always trying to touch it and put it by his mouth. He must find it interesting. xD

That's a really good suggestion, the box! I can cut a little exit door too. I will have to poke through the tons of boxes here at work, I like that idea a lot.

Of course now I am getting sick. Go figure I will be sick when I have my vacation time. ): I need a gallon of orange juice. =_=

 

[Velo]

Well intros went okay tonight. I didn't bring in the wall, since I'm not feeling well and didn't have the energy to try something new.

He was not as wrapping as he has been the past 2 or 3 intros. He did maybe one or two wraps? Mostly grooming, which he is a little rough with but that's okay. Plenty of butt sniffing. He "gathered info" on Rizzy twice, but only for 3 seconds.

Put a box like peggy had in, complete with exit door. They LOVED it, all four peacefully explored it together. After that rocky was done... totally fixated on me or the tub. I tried to just silently remove him from me, hoping he would seek comfort in the girlie rat pile that was next to us. Eventually he tried... but couldn't figure out how to insert himself into the pile. Which made me sad. ): I grabbed a piece of fleece and they happily romped together in it a bit.

He got tired and went to rest in the corner, the girls went up and checked him out, but no comforting.
We ended with rocky on my lap, bruxxing & boggling while I pet him, and the 3 girls running circles excitedly around the room.

I have a ground video I will be putting on youtube buts it's mostly a video diary report.

 

[Velo]

http://youtu.be/xsLi8CK_J0I

Intro from last night. 95% is boring and not much going on.
He was more well behaved overall, I only see 2 times when he wraps and I have to "NO" him. But not very interested in being a group..

He stops eating yogurt at 7:35 to go investigate the girls.
He does do some back scratching thing which happens around 8:40ish that I describe... Not sure what he was trying to accomplish with it.
I see him seek comfort from Theia at about 12 minutes, when I ignore him...
House in at 13:50.
Around 17:50 he interacts with Theia.. Looks like she's on her back but they were in a tight spot LOL. Still not sure if that was "wrapping" around 18:07...
Around 20-21 minutes he tries to join Theia and Rizzy a bit.
23:50... Take him off, put him down, take him off, put him down. Trying to get him to go visit the girls, right next to us, in that corner. He responds by peeing right in front of the camera!!! To spite me, I'm guessing. ~_~
26:45... seemingly cannot find a place to squeeze in with the girls.

I need to like cover these girls in yogurt so he will pay attention to them. -_-'
I think blocking the tub with the wall will help but I need to do some logistics with that. Need to be careful not to rip the paint off the walls when I tape the wall up and find a way to reach Rocky's cage, as the wall is too tall (I can reach the Munchkin Express because I put it on the toilet).

 

[jorats]

Aww, I hope you are feeling better.
On a good note, the girls seem pretty happy.
I was wondering what you meant about the scratching and when I saw you do that with your arms, I totally know what he's doing. That is another form of dominance, it's as bad as a wrap. A wrap, a mount, the scratching on the back, those are all bad but only if the bottom rat doesn't submit. If the bottom rat would submit, those actions are fine and all part of living the colony life. But because of Rocky's history, too many changes and homes, we are going to stay cautious and not allow it.
I think Theia is really getting her groove on and trying to boss him. That would be awesome if this actually calms Rocky down.
Peeing on the head, I always thought of it as claiming.
Nice, with that box. Peggy is a smart cookie, good suggestion. I think I'll use it too when it's my turn for intros...soon. eek
At 17:50 I think she's flipping herself for him. I don't think that was a wrap. In any case, Theia is not worried about or cares about it. That's a big yay!
LMAO!!! Love the pee shot. That is too funny. Naw, animals never do anything out of spite, it's just a coincidence.

Where is your familiar ground usual playtime for the rats? It might be time to move intros there, all depending how big the area is and how many hidey homes there are.

 

[jorats]

I wanted to add this intros was excellent!
Also, something you might consider, using only one carrier for all of them for transport from cage to intro spot.