Velo's Intro Thread [Advice pls?]

[hopefloats]

He would of never been adoptable if he did this here. I cannot believe or understand why he is being like this.

 

[Velo]

Oh please don't say that I love Rocky so so so much, he makes me so happy and I am absolutely overjoyed that you let me adopt him and that he is part of my life. I will do whatever it takes and make sure he doesn't get lonely. I only ever get frustrated because I want to do the best I can for him.

 

[jorats]

It's clear that he's enjoying these intros. We will keep at it, we'll try different things. Maybe even try a real clicker. There's a way to get work on reflex and the clicker. And you can always work on clicker training when it's one on one with you and Rocky and then bring it into the intros as soon as Rocky understands it.
I got my sister to train two very "neurotic" neutered males to actually avoid each other with counter conditioning using the clicker. They lived together comfortably by the time we were done.

 

[Velo]

He will get there I have faith. He has changed so much during intros and improved overall. It's been a bit longer than the usual, but I see that he acts differently, and the girls do too. That's all that matters to me, things are moving along even if it's hard to see.

With clicker training... I do believe a real clicker would scare the girls (in videos, I sneeze and they bolt) and it's hard to reward him. He doesn't care about treats and he's stating to care less about me paying attention to him during intros. It's hard to know what behaviors to award because I don't want to interrupt the good behaviors.

I know now that he respects me stopping him, he proved that tonight, I just have to figure out the interact nicely with girls = human is happy with me part.

 

[hopefloats]

Oh please don't say that I love Rocky so so so much, he makes me so happy and I am absolutely overjoyed that you let me adopt him and that he is part of my life. I will do whatever it takes and make sure he doesn't get lonely. I only ever get frustrated because I want to do the best I can for him.

I would of never put such a grumpy boy out there LOL I feel horrible he is being so impossible to those girls. We all love rocky but there are limits of who you adopt and who you dont, he would of been a lifer. I wonder how in the hell he was ok with the demon girls and I mean these girls were bad but he is taking so long there. These girls are not mean but the ones I had him with where and the only one he would chase was cruella but she gave in, then she would pin him. It just amazes me that he turned out to be a bugger. He is lucky he is such a people rat because taht is what saves him LOL you can overlook the shamey parts when they are being so nice to people

I am glad you have him though just because you have what it takes to make it happen but I am just dumbfounded at how he is acting.

 

[Velo]

Maybe he just likes mean or bossy girls?
XD
Maybe Rizzy and Pika will start pushing him around like Theia does, that would help.

Anyways, here are videos from last night. The second takes place after the first. In the second one, where I yelp and put the camera down and everything goes black, that's when he and Pika went into a ball.

http://youtu.be/3BZMpGhGDcg
http://youtu.be/SO7NCBPR7Qc

In the meantime I will try and work on my positive reinforcement / clicking. ;|

 

[jorats]

The reason I said to read a book, it's so your nervous energy doesn't come through too much. And sometimes, that's all it takes. (I'm a fine one to talk, I was a nervous wreck today when I did my intros, every squeak I would jump and yell. lol)
He's definitely testing when he yanks the fur/skin with his mouth. But he's not doing it to bite or to hurt, even when you say he has the leg in his mouth, if he's not leaving a mark, then he's being very gentle.
Which is confusing to me as to why he's doing it in the first place.
That stand off was great. He went down first. So she showed him.
At this point, you could have done a kissy noise to distract them. But it was a good standoff. I don't usually stop those.

Since having my babies boys, I see them rough play a lot and it kind of makes me wonder if that's what Rocky wants. That kind of rough play with the girls.
What happened at 3:56, second vid. Was he about to wrap Rizzy but he turned away instead?
I think he's picking on Pika because he can. Theia and Rizzy both have told him to bugger off. Pika hasn't yet... not enough.
OMG... at 11:33 Did he just go settle down near the girls. Swooooon That was awesome. Love it. We are getting somewhere!

(The video quality is awesome, even after being compressed by YouTube. Which phone is that?)

 

[Velo]

Ya I get that. But I think I'm less nervous when I'm keeping an eye on them haha! It's hard not to be nervous to some extent!

I wish he'd be done with his tests. He's done plenty of "testing". He put his mouth over Theia ear today, I'm guessing it was similar to the foot thing since she didn't get hurt.

Maybe he does want to rough house... not sure how that'll work out if the girls don't like it though. Yes he did stop and move on from Rizzy there... he does do that sometimes, not sure if something distracts him or he doesn't want me to yell at him or what.

Yes when he settled with the girls I was happy! That was a good moment. I wish they could figure out how to play together too. It's weird because during playtime they do all the same kinds of things in the ratroom... namely run around like crazy and come bother me. XD

That video is on my Samsung galaxy s5. The one from today's intro is on my old galaxy s3. They are good phones, I just have issues with space lol!

Here's the video from today
http://youtu.be/W09TTboX6UQ

He was being very very sassy in the beginning, but he did a proper flip/pin on Rizzy. You'll see he's much less attached and fixated on me during intros now.

 

[jorats]

Start saying your NO! the second you see him do something you don't want him to do. We will make that your marker for undesirable behaviour but it has to be done the second you see him do something you don't want him too.
Also, instead of moving him away from the area, simply sweep him off of her. If he persists, do a hand/wall barrier until he gets it.
Bobbing or pees, great addition!
( I used to have a ball pen, exactly like yours...and then I had one rat chew every single ball in there. lol)
He's much less fixated on you because there are so much more things in the area, making it much more interesting.
And I agree, no rewarding avoidance. Although, avoidance is ok. But just not something to reward.
20:07 LOL Rocky don't need no door to the ball pen.
Rocky was bruxxing. ( 2 x or only 1?)
A rat will chatter during extreme stress, to the point where you see their mouth open and close during a very loud chatter. Those really freak me out and puts me on high alert.

You are doing really good. Each new vid, I can see some progress.

 

[Velo]

My biggest issue with saying no in time is sometimes it looks like he is gonna wrap / is wrapping but he ends up grooming. Also should I say no when he scratches their backs? I'm assuming so... what about when he "punches" them? What about the grabbing the fur in his mouth?

Would saying no when a wrap escalates be okay? When he first wraps it's usually gentle and the girls don't mind. After about 5 seconds he pushes harder and they get uncomfortable... what about allowing 5 second wraps? Might help with pinning. And pinning on the back is as long as he wants right? I get pretty uncomfortable after about 20 seconds myself but whatever he needs to work it out I will try. And still break him off after ten seconds under a girls belly? But don't necessarily say no?

Sorry I know that it's a lot of questions but these are the things I wonder and stop my reflexes.
I will work on sweeping instead of moving!

Haha not a one figured out how to actually bob for a pea though. i have one of those crinkle tubes that is pretty spacious maybe i will try that out next. Lol rocky was not interested in using either door, such a dork. Aww I'm glad he was happy then, at least all 4 are happy during intros. I know the girls are enjoying them more and more.

 

[hopefloats]

you can tell the girls are gaining confidence with you and the intros. They are looking a lot better. It is hard to judge when to stop it and when not to. Follow your instinct if you feel it might be a bad one, then stop it if not then let it. Honestly if it is on the back, i wouldn't worry as much as the belly. I would "test" more on the back than the belly. Even if it turns out to be a bite, they heal fast there. He is waiting for something. Most rats, grab hold and groom then stop. He is waiting for something, but not sure what. John used to do that, hold on, linger and bite. He was menace. I wonder what he is thinking he is achieving with this move on the girls?

 

[Velo]

The girls are making leaps and bounds with their bravery and confidence.

I wish I knew what he was thinking!
I'm fine with testing some stuff for sure... he has figured out pinning and flipping better through that. He does those intense wraps and I get so nervous though!

 

[jorats]

Like Peggy says, you have very good instincts, go with that. You are doing great!

 

[Velo]

Intros went pretty good. He was being his pushy self, he got a few good flip/pins on Rizzy but he just kept doing them... not sure why but he did like 5 in a row.

Otherwise it was pretty decent, he cuddled up with Theia and they all played in the crinkle tube together. He can be such a grumpy butt and he's a bit too rough for the girls' liking but hopefully he can let it go soon.

 

[Velo]

Here's the video, bit long. I gotta watch it still:

http://youtu.be/SlMBroImc14

Also I just found out that I may not be able to do intros one day this week, will that be very detrimental? \:

 

[hopefloats]

One day shouldn't matter, maybe it will give them a small break from rocky he is a lot to handle LOL. He seemed really good most of the video except for the one part he had the girl pinned. He is just persistent at holding them there.

 

[jorats]

That funky pin/wrap at around 10m, I would have broken that up too. It was too crowded there. Also, I wanted to make note that Rocky wasn't pouffy there and seems quite fine being picked off the girl. So I don't think he's doing it to be mean at all, which is an interesting finding.
The face thing, I've seen that before and it never escalates to anything. I don't get that either why some rats do that in the face. It would be worse if he was opening his mouth and sort of biting the face which I've seen some jerk rats do before. But I don't see Rocky doing that at all.
I don't think Rocky was being aggressive, but more forceful with Rizzy but I noticed that Rizzy wasn't really running away from him either so it can't be bothering her all that much.
It might be time to move your intros to the rat room if your comfortable with that.

 

[jorats]

Oh and skipping a day should be fine.

 

[Velo]

Thanks for the advice guys! I don't like the idea of taking a day off since I've worked so hard to make time every single day for it but the boyfriend's parents want to visit on one of the nights when we only have 2 hours to ourselves.
Also I used to dread intros but now I really look forward to them so I'll miss doing it!

He is very persistent... he does good but he just takes everything a little too far, nothing horrible but just that bit too far.

Yes! Luckily rocky deals pretty well with me removing him from situations so that's good. I don't know exactly what's he's doing... I really do think he may expect them to act like those tough/mean girls he was with before (correct me if I'm wrong peggy but besides those girls he was raised alone?) So that could explain his rough and tumble attitude... he's used to tougher rats and my girls really just aren't tough and are spoiled rotten heh!

I'm glad about the face thing, I've never tried to stop it. He just has this general pushy vibe.
I just wish he'd calm down with Rizzy a bit, she submits to him well enough. They are all submitting to him as far as I can see...

Anyways!
I would really like to move intros to the ratroom, I have a feeling they might go better. I could be wrong, but rocky always goes nutso and popcorns and begs to be let out of the cage when the girls are out. It will have to wait till mid-late week since I will probably be stuck at work very late the first few days.

I attached a pic of my ratroom. I think if I remove the carrier cages, shuffle some stufd about, and prop my couch into a seat instead I should have a good view and access of everyone. Would love to know how they act around the homestead.

 

[Velo]

Ah okay I just found out the day I won't be able to do intros is tomorrow! His parents are coming at 715, we'll be home at 645 and we have to be in bed by about 830 or 9 so no leway. Maybe if they leave early I can sneak a short one in. >_>