Mr. H, HED - One Tooth Down

[victoria]

Can you put one of the girls in the hospital cage for company. I know it's less than ideal, but it may make him happier.

 

[Joanne]

I just got some Theophylline for my rattie Lily. I looked up info on the drug. You are not supposed to give Theophylline with Baytril, as the Baytril will inhibit the metabolism of Theophylline. Theophylline is a stimulant, so he is probably feeling the effects. It can go as far as giving rats panic attacks and potentially killing them if the concentration gets too high.
I am trying to compromise by giving Lily her Baytril in the am, Theophylline in the afternoon, and then her second dose of Baytril in the evening. I don't know if this will be OK, but I am watching her closely.
It depends on which book you check. In Debbie Ducommon's book, it is definitely contraindicated. In the Rat Guide it is just a potential drug interaction. So, maybe your boy is hyper because of the meds.

 

[M0onkist]

Hmm... I totally didn't pick up on that interaction... it could be... definitely could be. What do you do with theophylline, Shelagh? I don't think Dr. Munn said when to give the theophylline relative to the abs, but it might have been sleep-deprivation that made me skip remembering that part.

On a random note, I've figured out who Mr. Honeycomb is bonded to... for the longest, longest time I thought it was Ducky. But Ducky wasn't a great nursemaid though, and would nibble his ears while he was sick (which would make him squeak, and he doesn't need stress). Cera, it has long been known, is an ear-nibbling guerrila fighter (she loves jumping down on her sisters out of the blue for a wrestle-fight).

On a hunch, then, I put Petrie into the travel/sick cage - Mr. Honeycomb fell asleep like five seconds later. I'm kind of stunned that I misjudged how close they were, but I'm just happy that he's happy now. Petrie's just toodling around the little cage, rearranging blankets etc., and occasionally walking over Mr. H. who is fine with being walked on (I checked on him a couple of times and got a sleepy 'why are you waking me up?!' glare.

 

[crumbilina]

Yes, Baytril (a fluoroquiolone drug) can inhibit the cytochrome P450 pathway which metabolizes caffeine and theophylline and therefore the caffeine/theophylline builds up in the system potentially leading to toxic effects. It might depend on the presence of a specific side chain on the molecule though, which might not be present on baytril BUT it is an effect commonly seen with the use of quinolones/fluoroquinolones. I would call the vet and ask about this as it is a pretty well known drug effect. Fluoroquinolones like ciprofloxacin that humans take (usually for a UTI) has a warning not to consume coffee/caffeine while taking it too. I am not sure about how long it would take to clear from the system, but due to the fast metabolism that rats have perhaps giving it in the time frame that Joanne suggested would work (I just did a presentation on quinolones for my grad class, so it is pretty fresh in my memory).

Glad Mr. H. has settled down for a rest with Petrie. It sounds adorable! He missed his girls! :heart: He sounds so lovely!

 

[mamarat]

Mr. H can be happy with his girl while waiting for the meds to work.

 

[MomRat]

. He thinks it's neurological, rather than arthritic, so it's not something that can be helped by glucosamine (I did ask). If it had been arthritic, it definitely would have been a good thing to do.

Instead Dr. Munn suggested I put a drop or two of omega 3-6 fish oil on a treat, and let him eat it - it acts as an anti-inflammatory, so it should help some.

So everyone's back and happy, alternately eating or passed out (depending on the personality) - going to the vet is tough work!

Can I ask what your dosing guidelines are for the fish oil? We've had Gregory on Glucosamine since he hit 2 years(4 months ago) and I think he may be in the same boat as Mr. H. His hind leg trembles are atrocious - He'll be sleeping/laying down, and his whole hind end just shakes like a wet dog. We bought the oil yesterday, and gave him a couple drops in his ensure this morning, but I can't find any guidelines on ratguide.com... Do you give it every day? We have to keep an eye on him, he's had raging diahrrea from antibiotics the last few weeks, and I don't want to make it worse... :? Thanks!

 

[victoria]

Momrat, I'm not sure if there are guidelines for dosing, but fish oil isn't something that is going to have adverse effects if given at a high dose (for example GI upset with Glocosamine-Chondroitin supplements) but you do have to be careful of the quality/grade of the supplements. You want to look for a pharmaceutical grade supplement that has been distilled to eliminate toxins (like mercury and PCBs) that bioaccumulate.You should also try a probiotic for the diarrhea, it can help with the GI discomfort and the good bacteria can help crowd out the bad.

 

[MomRat]

We bought the distilled oil, no worries. Already did the research on what to get, but I had read that it could be a stool softener/given for constipation, and didn't want to cause GI upset. We've had Greg eating soda crackers, and parts of the BRAT diet, to no effect - dropping the Zithro helped, as did adding ensure to his diet. I'm just curious as to how much Moon's vet recommended giving. =)

 

[M0onkist]

Dr. Munn just recommended a couple of drops each day - put on a treat, or in with medications.

Mr. Honeycomb seems to have no problems with eating it, lol - at one point he ate the fish oil before I could cover it up with ensure!

 

[M0onkist]

Ugh... I feel like the worst kind of rat mother!

Basically I was tending the rats, had the girls out on my shoulders (a usual pasttime for them). All of a sudden Cera NAILS me in the ear - of course I scream like a girl, but everyone stays on (though Cera goes into the travel cage for a timeout so I could see if something was ailing her).

I took Mr. Honeycomb out (he's in the big cage again), and held him while I was getting his meds out. He climbed up to my shoulder, and normally he's okay there... only this time, because of what I'm wearing or heaven knows what, he falls off and lands on the floor!!!

He didn't move though - he tends to go very still if he's on the floor, he's not one to bolt. So I picked him up and cuddled him (for him and for me!).

Was going to give him a banana anyway, but this kind of sped up the process of giving the banana (remembering the issue with Quilt).

One of his two upper lips is swollen, his lower lip looks a tiny bit discolored. I think all his teeth are fine (lowers are definitely fine, and he's eating banana like there's no tomorrow).

I gave him the 0.1cc of metacam as prescribed by Dr. Munn for the URI/HED - should I be upping that for tonight? Should I also be keeping him apart, or maybe just with Petrie, up in my room to keep an eye on him? The guilt is really overwhelming me right now... I can't lose my sweet lazy manrat!

 

[M0onkist]

Oh, he weighed 540g at last check too.

 

[mamarat]

I wouldn't give a higher dose of Metacam, just his usual. How is he now? still active?

 

[M0onkist]

To be honest if he hadn't looked up while chewing on his banana piece (so far half of it's gone, and he got half a banana, the glutton), I wouldn't have noticed *anything* - the only obvious sign is the blueness of his lower lip and the swelling/blueness of one of his upper lips. All his behavior's the same, no gingerness in his front paws, I checked and all four incisors are there (which was a HUGE relief). I'm still going to check religiously (every dosing of meds, so 3x/day) to make sure they're still straight and good.

He's doing a fine job of demolishing the poor banana. I keep apologizing to him over and over.

 

[mamarat]

If he's drinking and eating, he's probably ok. I would leave him with his girls and just keep an eye on him. Good luck with your sweetie.

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

I wouldn't give him anymore metacam unless he's clearly in pain or has a broken/sprained limb just because it's a blood thinner (not trying to worry you) so on the slight chance he had internal bleeding it wouldn't help the situation. As mama said I would leave him with his girls and just keep a close eye on him. I hate HED (I have 2 boys suffering right now ), my boys always misjudge how strong their legs are.

 

[M0onkist]

Oh, I totally hear you, Smilez! Gonna have to tell him very firmly but lovingly that he can cuddle in my arms all he wants, but the shoulder is out of the question now, unless I'm sitting down, leaning against the wall and fully aware of where he is at all times.

And don't worry about worrying me, I've got good hopes but I prepare for the worst of the worst!

 

[mamarat]

How's Mr. H this morning?

 

[M0onkist]

There's a teeny bit of swelling in one of his upper lips, but there's no trace of bruising on the bottom. He's bright-eyed and chipper, and does his usual macho 'aw MOM!' routine when I keep kissing his sweet face. Teeth are all good too!

 

[mamarat]

That's great!!

 

[crumbilina]

Glad to hear he's doing ok