Intros

[violet976]

Looks like I'm going to be needing your services this time around. I'll be refreshing my memory today by reading through this topic, but thought I'd give you the situation. Pretty sure its a common one. :wink2:

Trying to intro my newbie Lebowski (guessing under 4 months, but he seems a bit big for that. I can weigh him if it helps), to Minx (spayed female - 2 years) & Bosco (unneutered male - 1 year). I just brought the little bugger home & let them meet on the bathroom floor, in hopes that they would be of the easy intro variety. Minx has no problem with Lebowski, but Bosco turned into the instigator. There were all signs of huffing, puffing, & overexcited searching for the "other rat". Luckily I had Lebowski in my arms & saw Bosco lunge. I caught him in midair & moved him away, but he latched onto my finger (pretty bad bite/drew blood). I hurried to put Lebowski in the travel cage, with Bosco still lunging at me, & grabbed Bosco & put him back in the cage. I waited 10 minutes before putting Minx back, as I was afraid he might attack her in that state.

So, Minx & Bosco are back in the cage together, but Bosco is still nipping me hard (no blood, but I haven't tried too many times) & I'm sure I still have Lebowski's scent on me. So, we will be starting at square one, full on intro process. But I was wondering your opinion on both the best way to go about it & whether or not Minx & Lebowski should be allowed to meet & greet during this, or whether Bosco will attack Minx if she comes back in the cage smelling like Lebowski. I was also wondering, should Lebowski stay in the small travel cage, or should be be moved into the bottom of the FN, so we can begin swapping sections & letting them get familiar with the scent of each other.

All advice is appreciated, & I can definitely look into neutering if need be. Is that considered the first approach or the last effort after the initial proper intro protocol?

EDITED TO ADD:

Upon further reading through this thread, I thought it important to add that I did have the travel cage in the bathroom as well (which Minx & Bosco play on the bed in, & which I had taken over to my mothers to bring Leboswki home in). So, Bosco did see Lebowski in "his" cage, even though I had them meet on the floor of the bathroom. So... perhaps not as neutral as I had intended...

 

[jorats]

Oh boy... Bisco is going to be your problem child. I really don't like the fact that he continued to try to nip you. He was definitely in the red zone. Good call on your part and not putting Minx with him right away. He surely would have attacked her.
Best thing... A neuter for Bosco.
But if that's not feasible, stRt with the cage swapping. Gave Lebiwski live on the bottom. I wouldn't attempt intros with anyone until Bosco gets used to the little guy's smell in the home. So about 5 days.
Then you will need a scary spot for intro. In the tub or basement near say a washing machine that is in use. The noise should be scary. No toys no boxes nothing except yummy food on a plate in the centre.
Thiese intros will take a long time.

 

[violet976]

That's what I was afraid of. I was hoping for the sugar coated version, I suppose. :laugh4: But I guess it's better to know what I'm in for. I'll go ahead & begin the cage swapping process with Lebowski on the bottom of the FN for now. Thank goodness for a double FN, right? & luckily Lebowski is a very curious, very people friendly little man. How many days do before I start swapping the items/bedding in the cage? I'm going to leave Lebowski on the bottom, just so no dangling tail incidents occur. & how long before the tub intro? Or do I look for certain behavioral signs & gauge it off that? Also, will I be needing to wash my arms/hands in between interactions, or will Bosco move past attempting to bite my hand? (I do understand this is all guesswork on your part)

Yes, the lunging was what really worried me, although the bite didn't help. He actually bit me when I caught him & held onto him, in my effort to keep him from nearly getting Lebowski's tail (I can only imagine what he would have done to that tail). But it all happened so quick from there that I didn't have enough time to be afraid. I just tried to make some loud noises at him to get him to back off, & those didn't work. So I snatched him up & ran him over to the cage. In hindsight, I should have read the fear in poor Lebowski when he first saw Bosco, but I just thought, "no blood, no foul", & was hoping they'd move past it.

I'm still holding out hope for these wee ones, as Bosco was such a docile little thing. But if proper introing fails us, the vet who did Minxies e-spay is still 1.5 hours away, & only charges $42. :dance: Roadtrip, chop chop, back by dinner. :laugh4:

I'll be checking in with you periodically to update & get your input on how things are progressing. Thanks so much for being here for us!!! :thumbup: I think I've been so lucky in the past with boy on boy intros going easy breezy, that I sometimes forget that isn't quite the norm.

 

[jorats]

Omg. I just re-read what I wrote. Please excuse all the errors... I was using my phone. lol

A lot of moves will depend on what signals you get from all three rats.
No more washing your hands. He needs to know this boy is here to stay. You need to be ready for his moves on you. You can't let him bite you. If he lunges, you need to put a towel on him and hold him down, like you are pinning him. Hold down for a few seconds. Let him go when you say so, not because he struggled his way out of your hold. You can start the bedding changes in a day or so.

Wow!!! Lucky you, such cheap neuters! Good to know you have that to fall back on.

 

[violet976]

No worries on the spelling errors, I was in such a state I didn't even notice them until now. But now that I reread, they made me smile.

So, when you state to be ready if he lunges, do you mean just always have a towel handy? I'm already thinking I'll try my first interactions with me smelling like Lebowski on the bed, not the cage, as there are too many places to hide & lunge in the cage. Perhaps a few successful attempts will subside my newfound fear of those teeth. :emb: He did come out on the bed today after Lebowski played on it, & the fur went immediately up & the huffing & frantic searching began again. :roll:

& yes, I am very lucky on the vet. I even called my new vet I switched to in town (& the one I really like locally), & they were $70-$100. Not too bad, & it's nice to have a local option.

I'll keep you posted. :thumbup:

 

[jorats]

What I mean by be ready is watch his body language. There is always an indication that he's about to go after you and yes, the towel is now you constant buddy. lol I don't want you getting bit anymore than you need too. lol
The fact that he didn't go after you on the bed is good.

 

[violet976]

Thanks. We'll keep at it. I put Lebowski on the bottom level last night & fully blocked off the center pan hole. I had to take out the second shelf & move the other one all the way to the bottom, as Lebowski kept sniffing up with minx/bosco freaking out above him. I woke to one squealing match in the night, but saw no injuries. this a.m., they seem fine.

Yes, i trust bosco more on the bed, but he still sniffs my hand & then nips (no blood). I'm hoping that eases as we move forward. :wink2:

I'll update again tomorrow.

 

[violet976]

todays update (two days since first intro attempt): I've been alternating play times on the bed, letting Bosco/Minx play after Lebowski. Since I'm still hesitant of being bitten by Bosco when he smells Lebowski on my hand, I brought some vegan yogurt with me & hand fed him after he tasted some from the bowl. I also switched the pans/shelves & some hammocks & observed Bosco's reaction. He was immediately alert & running around the cage. I had thrown a wood block of Lebowski's in, & I'm not sure if it was agitation or something else, but his interest was peaked & he began sniffing/lifting & chewing pretty aggressively. That wood block has been in his cage for months now, & he's never cared about it. This morning, it was definitely used.

He is still very aggravated when he can sense Lebowski underneath his pan. LOTS of huffing/puffing/foot stomping. I don't know how much concern to put into that though, as Minx does a bit of that herself, & she accepted him fine the first day. Minx also did the same thing when I intro'd her to Bosco, yet she was ok when she met him face to face.

So... That's where we are at now. I'll do another bedding switch tomorrow. Let me know if I'm doing anything wrong, or if there is something else I should be doing as well.

THANKS SO MUCH!

 

[jorats]

You're doing great. And it's normal for Bosco and Minx to huff up and they can do that forever and it would be normal.

 

[violet976]

todays update: Still about the same. I've been petting Bosco on the bed, but only with yogurt in hand to distract him. I also let him in Newbies (Lebowski didn't stick, so I'm rethinking of a name) cage today. He seemed pretty calm, fur only just slightly poofed. While in the cage, he also ran in & out on my jacketed arms. I finally tried testing him with my unsleeved wrist (I'm still not brave enough to offer him fingers), & he does still bite my wrist when he smells Newbie on it. Not breaking skin but harder than I'm comfortable with, & I eep at him to try & not let him get to that point, as the bites begin to increase in power as he goes. No lunging, just sniffs & hard nips on my wrist.

So, I suppose my main question is what's the plan of attack from here. I will continue switching the bedding & letting Bosco/Minx play in Newbies cage when he's out, but I'm wondering how soon it might be safe to let Minx play with Newbie? My main fear is still that she might get attacked if she smelled like the new guy. I was also thinking of dotting each of them with vanilla extract daily, to get Bosco familiar with the scent.

Also, my mother will be coming over tomorrow, so if it's time to try another intro it could be then, or would have to wait until next weekend, as I definitely want her over so we have extra hands. If we still need to wait, no worries, I just wanted to know since i have an opportunity tomorrow if need be. If/when, I think the best option we'll have will be the tub filled with a bit of water. & I'm assuming gloves are perfectly ok this time around, right? :laugh4:

 

[jorats]

If you feel that Bosco is ready for intros, you can always try it. If you want to try with only Minx, go ahead, he shouldnt be too reactive anymore.
But.. If and when you are ready to do the intros with all three, the intros must be done every day. Keep a steady routine. If you can do intros, twice a day, even better.

 

[violet976]

:stickpoke: That's what I'm asking you. :wink2: I honestly have no idea how to judge when he's ready for intros or how long it can take for one to be ready for intros given the rough start I gave him. I'd hate to give him another go too soon & make things more difficult, but I don't know how to judge whether or not he's ready.

Quite honestly, this is my first really difficult intro. All the others were instant connections, except for Minx last time around, who wasn't really that bad.

...Couldn't you just fly down here & run me through this. :laugh4:

 

[jorats]

lol...I wish I could!
Ok, give him a few more days, then try neutral ground intros with all three.

 

[violet976]

Tried the tub with my mothers help today. First I bathed both Bosco & Newbie with a bit of shampoo to blend their scents, then we put them in the tub filled with some water & one little pie tin "island". Things went well, I think. No scuffling, just a lot of attempts to jump out. They shared the island, & groomed themselves next to each other. At one point Newbie put his head under Bosco's. At a few points I blocked with my hand, just because Bosco looked a little tense, but no attacks or warning signs. Bosco had opportunity, sniffed his tail a few times, but no bites.

We made them stay in there for about 10-15 minutes, then ended with a bit of soy yogurt & each dried off a rat.

So, my question is, can I keep doing the water/tub intro until I trust them enough to move them to the floor? I'm hoping eventually they will come out of the tub & dry off together, but I don't want to push it. & we didn't include Minx in this, as she is over 2 years old & already gets along with Newbie for the most part, so I'm hoping to bring her into it after Bosco has had a chance to trust Newbie, & without the added aggravation of having "his girl" in the mix.

Thoughts?

 

[jorats]

You can try it another time with the water but I wouldn't do anymore than that. A wet rat doesn't smell the same as the rat so Bosco and Newbie really aren't meeting each other. But you are getting them used to another rat being there. Sounds like it went very well.

 

[handmeafish]

So introing Arthur to the babies was going really well... and I felt like they were ready to some together cage time. I cleaned everything out, washed it good, and took out the igloo's and stuff... they started fighting right off. So I let them squable for a bit, but cut it short because Arthur looked really stressed.
I went back to meeting on known territory with stuff, and again they were fine... they groom each other, and Arthur shows know signs of being bothered by the little ones. He'll eat with them, he'll let them groom him, and he'll groom them. They act just fine, and its not even the ignoring each other stuff that they often get.
So I try again to put them together, and this time I include some yummys, Arthur loves squash and baby food, so we did that, but he Ignored it, and got all defensive again.
So Today, right now, they are on my bed, eating a breakfast of a scrambled egg, Kale and banana baby food... and doing fine, no fighting, no signs of nervousness on anyones part... they were even all wrapped up in my blankets a second ago, together, just looking up at me...
I don't know if there is an in between step that I am missing...
I know Arthur is about 2, according to his intake form... Their squabbling has never been actual fighting, just boxing and a bit of tusling, and I usually let them sort it out a bit, but I only give them a little bit to do so, because they just end up looking so stressed.
I think Seamus is trying to be alpha, He just walked over arthur, and Marked his head, and he's usually the one the squabbling happens with...
So I dunno where to go from here. Arthur seems much happier after some time with the babies, much more so than just after out time with me, so I'd really like to continue trying to get them together... I just don't see how they can be fine out of the cage, and freak out in the cage... its been 2 weeks, which I know isn't a lot, but there has been no squabbling out of the cage...

 

[jorats]

How old are the young ones. I'd stick them all in the cage and watch. Unless there's big fights, I'd keep them together.

 

[handmeafish]

The young ones are about 6months.... they aren't really babies any more, but they are still my babies

 

[jorats]

Ah, ok, at 6 months, we need to be a little more careful. I'd do another week of familiar ground intros, if you can do them twice a day. Also, make sure they are an hour long.

 

[handmeafish]

ok, twice a day for an hour each... I was doing 1 hour, and then about 30 minuetes alone time each.
Should I add anything, remove anything... toys, food ect?