Alright my favorite rat experts :) only when difficult :) ha

[hopefloats]

Ok big night well two in a row actually. I was up late so i left Templeton and loki with the babies. They do so well. And they have been together all day, not one issue. You can see them doing the rat thing but nothing major. They stand up on their legs and little grooming here and here. I think they can actually live together. yay, 4 down two to go.

I have been doing the switch cages for a while. I no longer wash my hands after touching ether sets of boys so they can smell them on me. I am happy to report i have no injuries from any of the....

So today, I put the cage by the boys, in their typical manner, they hissed. Just like the do the dog or anything else animal like that comes near their cage. I dont think it is anything major, but I dont like it either... I really think it is stressing them out a lot by doing that, it cannot be a happy moment to hiss and pounce in place.

So i left them there, talking to my cocky ones, they stop when i get onto them about it, which still amazes me, I just dont picture them listening like my dog. when they do, i get dumbfounded. that only lasted about 4 minutes, then I couldn't let them keep getting upset.

So I was sitting here and figured I know when they are in my hands, they are calm. They never hiss at the dog, they never get attitude. So tonight I let all my boys meet toby!
I was shocked. I thought for sure, one would lunge at him, but I didn't expect Toby to i really trust him now more so than any of my other rats, sad huh, I actually figured Templeton or loki would. Not one ounce of hissing or lunging from any of them. I let them sniff each other watching closely to make sure they wouldn't attack. I figured maybe they could associate the smell with the rat now, and maybe the cage in front wont be so stressful for them.

I even took them onto the floor two at a time. Toby is brave, he was like sweet, more space, he just walked around, then came by me. My boys Loki and Templeton, seeked out shelter on my shoulders. there they did she same thing, and I wasn't holding them there as much. It went well, not one i am going to kill you look from any.

I was relieved because i know a fight would put me back a while, i am trying not to fear it.

So i think i will still switch out cages, but the putting them in front isnt doing any good if all they do is freak out.
So the new approach will be holding onto them like this a few times a day. Once i see they can look at each other and be curious then we might venture into the bath tub.

Tonight I am going to separate the halves. I dont want to push my luck. I am still over protective with the babies, and they are the size of my smallest female.

One question about their scent, well both sexes, I notice templeton sides get wet, not as much anymore, but when he first smelled the boys, he would have it all over his sides.

Do the girls do that as well? I noticed isis side was wet same spots as the boys.

and this little scent that they put out. is it what smells good? LOL

Seriously, my boys were smelly when i brought them home, one bathed fixed them but this smell is really sweet smelling, I kinda expected it to smell like a cat marking or other animals.
I was making everyone smell templeton because he smells so good. Then I smelled Isis, and she smells good too.

 

[jorats]

Your following your instincts and rat body language, that's good.

As for the scenting, it is on their sides and yes some girls do it too but very rare in my opinion. If I remember correctly, that is a musky odour. That marking is the dominant marking and not the "come and get me fellas" marking. That scent is from their lady parts.

 

[hopefloats]

I was kinda thinking about the scary place for intros, not that we are ready for that, we did try a little group last night to see how it went, in what I had hoped would be scary to them all. the problem is, toby is not scared of anything. Have you ever had a rat that was not fearful of any place? it seems like no matter where I take him, he wants to sniff around, or sniff the other rats. I am not sure what to make of this or how this will effect intro's

 

[jorats]

Oh ya, I've had plenty of rats who where not scared at all of anything. I still think it won't affect the intros too much. The other rats will probably be attracted to him because he will be the only one not scared so they will want to bond to him.

 

[hopefloats]

I am such a pain, but I want to be able to keep track of things later if i have to deal with another crazy introduction so I keep posting plus i need a little guidance since boys are harder, which I am totally grateful that i have that option here.

Loki, Templeton, ludo and AL, can live together just fine. On and off they have had sleep overs and they do fine. Templeton, chases them around not sure why, he doesnt hurt him but him and ludo seem to have a little bond going, ludo does not leave him alone either. Ludo is a whiner and whines constantly when they look at him.

Loki and Templeton usually sleep alone. Now each one has paired up with a baby, loki sleeps with al, and templeton sleeps with ludo.

I think it is templetons butt, just glad he moved or you would of had a manhood shot! :joy: with both babies, ludo and Al

I have been doing a lot of face to faces with the hairless and the older boys, more concerned about them than the babies at this point. I put the 4 on the top half of the cage and the hairless duo on the bottom. I am hoping that works out a little better, so they can be closer to each other.

 

[jorats]

It does help to keep a sort of journal and keep a timeline on the intros. It certainly helped me.
That is a cute pic!

 

[hopefloats]

This is totally nerve wrecking to me. I will be so glad when it is done. I keep running through my head what I can try. Face to face with me holding them goes fine. Toby is the one wanting to smell the others just sit there. We have been on the kitchen floor with a few today, it went OK. No attitude at all. Toby sniffs them so bad though I worry that he is going to bite, I kinda get freaked out when he does it to the babies. I seen pictures of what can happen.

have you ever tried intro-ing one at a time?

Templeton is the one i am concerned about now, he seems to be the main hisser in the cage.

 

[jorats]

I've never done on one but I know a few people have done it. You try what you are comfortable with. So go ahead and try it out.

 

[hopefloats]

So here is what I do know.

1. Toby is not scared of anything, he wonders around like everything is an adventure.
2. Toby or dopey do not hiss at the other boys.
3. Templeton and Loki both hiss and the other two.
a. If they see them near their cage.
b. If they hear or smell them in the bottom half of the double FN. Which is blocked so they cannot see each other.
4. when Loki or Templeton is out with the others, they are just scared. They tense up a bit.

I have been putting them near each other, face to face while holding them. I have also let them sniff each other.
They do not seem to go after the other outside of the cage, nor do they hiss outside it.

Dopey is laid back, kinda nervous, he likes other rats, well toby anyway, but he is unsure of these guys. he does not try to get physical with them.

so can a rat hiss at the cage, but not be a horrible mean rat?
Can this hissing ever stop?

I am seconded guessing :gaah:

I spent a lot of time switching cages it was fine. I put them near each other, it is my other two hissing at the ones on the bottom.

when they are outside looking at them in the bottom of the cage, they dont seem to hiss as much. It seems like out there they are kinda curious.

I know this is a slow process, but I am unsure when you decide it isnt going to work unless they all get neutered?

 

[hopefloats]

here is a little video of the meeting on the table. Toby is biting at them and puling their hair out. I think it is like a come here let me sniff you bite not a mean one.

My haired older boys dont seem to be mean outside.

The place is kinda of a bad spot, toby knows it, so he is a little more comfortable there, the other boys are pretty much scared of everywhere but their play areas LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H25LYvbBpI8

I need to work on my nervousness, i know better, but I will be heartbroken if one of them get hurt because i didnt do it right. lol

 

[jorats]

lol... ok, so from the video, Toby is loving the furry guy, sorry what's his name again?
Toby is sweet and gentle with him, he gets up and grooms his face. The hair pulling is like what you mentioned, come here and play with me.
The other guy is not scared, he's just stressed because he's away from his comfort zone which is the cage.
That would be considered a very good intro.

 

[hopefloats]

LOL sweet. The white and gray one is ludo, our baby, not so much anymore, the big blue is Templeton, he is my main hisser.

That is what I need to hear. just that so far it is looking ok :joy: :laugh4: honestly it is harder than i thought to tell what attitude is ok and which one is not.

It is funny I woke up this morning and Loki and templeton took all the cloth and put it around the sides of the cage. They made a barricade around the whole thing. They always try to hide stuff, usually it is my dogs head though. My favorite video of all time! so I think they were thinking if they put the cloth around the sides of the cage, the rats below them will disappear lol.

I have met one of my goals. I am down to 2 cages. their living space is kinda small right now, but once they get fully intro'd it will go back to the full size. I might even get the add on for the double FN LOL have a 3 tier cage. My fiance will love me for that LOL. I just seem to think that the on and off again, might be making it take longer. If they suffer through it so to speak, then maybe they will get over what ever ratty fear they are dealing with.

And all 4 of the boys were cuddled up in one basket this morning. I do a well being check every morning.....

I feel bipolar with these intro's, every day they change and I change my mind LOL.

Thank you for your help. I really could not stay sane while trying to do this. I didn't think boys would be so difficult. This whole process is so much more in depth than any other animal i have seen or dealt with.

 

[jorats]

It is very difficult with boys and I think it's because they can do so much damage in such little time.

I forgot to mention about the hiss... when there are bars separating them it's normal for them to hiss and huff and puff. That will not determine how they will act once face to face.
The minute there's restriction, even just holding, turns an animal into a protector of sorts and not necessarily their true character.

 

[hopefloats]

I had all 6 on the table anic: . With 3 different food options and one basket to feel safe in. SO far so good. that was a experience LOL. That is a lot of rats to watch.

I only gave them about 10 minutes. I don't want push my luck. I think i will do this a few times today.

My poor Templeton and Loki kept following me around the table. They wanted to crawl on me for safety.

Toby is all over all of them. He is not shy, even dopey was going and hiding under the other rats. I am not sure why he does that he always does, that is his comfort zone i guess.

I am so proud of myself. I didn't even break up the little squeaks from the babies. Just stood guard LOL.

 

[jorats]

That looks great. For tomorrow, make it a little longer. Things can happen after 20 minutes, that's usually when rats get over their fear of being away from the cage and when they start to concentrate on their surroundings and buddies.

 

[hopefloats]

First day at 20 minutes. went well. Toby is still biting and pulling on them, they do not like it so much. Over all no attitude though. Dopey tries to hide under all the rats lol he seems to find a lot of comfort in laying underneath them in stressful times. He is nervous though you can tell he is unsure what will happen with them.

Toby is the only one, who does not seem to care. He still eats the other are not interested in eating while out, he runs around sniffs them all, I think he will be the alpha. The other 5 sit there huddled up while he is off doing his thing LOL.

my boys want to be saved............

 

[hopefloats]

wow looking at that picture, ludo is almost the same size as my other boys. how do i not notice this? lol

 

[hopefloats]

20 mins is their limit. Templeton started getting cocky after that.

 

[jorats]

That's good... but in a few days, you'll need to go longer and get all the cocky out of them during intros. That's what we are looking for.
How Toby is acting is the result of the neuter. The stress has been lifted for him.

 

[hopefloats]

so what actually takes the attitude out? is the the meeting or is there something I should do when I see him start?

I see they are getting stressed, so I will let them to climb on my shoulders for a min, pet them, talk to them, you can tell it calms them. Then I put them back.

the other dont seek me out as much, but they still do a bit.