Respiratory Infection?

[Lise Patterson]

The doxy should help your boy. Let us know what strength/dose she prescribes.

 

[_ratowner]

Honestly, I am kind of freaking out a little. I don’t really trust the vet I go to for my boys to begin with but she has been telling me things that coincide with information that experienced rat owners have told me. I was searching up something else and came across the sentence “With rats, a "cold" (i.e., sneezing and sniffling), can quickly lead to pneumonia which can cause permanent damage to the lungs and even death if left untreated.” We all know now that my one boy has a respiratory problem and his medication hasn’t been working so we took him in and got him re-evaluated and she called a few days later to say that she is going to put him on doxycycline but he won’t be able to get that for quite some time because she has to order it in so he will be without any medication for maybe a little less than a month or something like that. I worry so mich about my boys and I love them (and my other animals) with all of my being and they are my whole life. I would never want anything bad to happen to them but I really never know what to do in these kinds of situations other than pain myself worrying about them all the time.

When out he also doesn’t really run around that much, he likes to just lay there sometimes. Other times he will run around a bit and explore. Should I worry? I’ve heard that male rats are lazier than females and will just be happy to sit with you and cuddle.

Thank you. All replies are appreciated. If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say it.

 

[_ratowner]

boost

 

[SQ]

As you said, your boy is not and has not been receiving the medical care he needs.
We have given you our advice, based on our years of experience with our experienced vets.
You have also been referred to ratguide.com which is a vet approved medical site that some vets refer to in addition to other sources.
I am sure that some of us can give our vet's contact info if you have a vet that would like to consult with them.
If you have questions you may want to try posting on the facebook group Real Rat Lovers Want To Know …… at least one of their medical contributors is a vet, perhaps they will tell you something different then you have been told on here

Your boy is not very active because he is ill.
He will get worse without the appropriate medical care

 

[_ratowner]

As you said, your boy is not and has not been receiving the medical care he needs.
We have given you our advice, based on our years of experience with our experienced vets.
You have also been referred to ratguide.com which is a vet approved medical site that some vets refer to in addition to other sources.
I am sure that some of us can give our vet's contact info if you have a vet that would like to consult with them.
If you have questions you may want to try posting on the facebook group Real Rat Lovers Want To Know …… at least one of their medical contributors is a vet, perhaps they will tell you something different then you have been told on here

Your boy is not very active because he is ill.
He will get worse without the appropriate medical care

I really am trying to get him the right medication as soon as possible but the vet doesn’t believe it is as severe as it is for some reason and thinks that it is okay to just leave him off his medication for a long time.

I feel as though I should trust the forum more as the members are experienced rat owners and they want what is best for the rats of the world but I am told to trust my vets opinion but she has only let me down thus far. I was told on the forum that it is stronger and works better if you use a combination of baytril and doxycycline or azithromycin but my vet has decided to just give him doxycycline by itself and when I suggested/pointed out the combination option she just shot the idea down.

 

[Lise Patterson]

I still don't understand why you can't access another veterinarian. I recall you saying that you live somewhere in western Ontario, near the Manitoba border. Could you not access one of the clusters of vets in Thunder Bay or Sault Ste. Marie, even at the inconvenience of a long car ride? It's clear that your vet is letting you and your boy down badly, and his potential life span and quality of life are suffering greatly as a result.
If you simply can't travel for whatever reason, it might be time to revisit a suggestion by lilspaz68, made much earlier in this thread:
"If you are in N. america you can order antibiotics online and dose them for longer."
"Going solo", i.e. acting beyond the supervision of a respectable vet, should always be a very last resort. But if I somehow couldn't get the veterinary care needed for a rat's life-threatening condition, I would go that route...provided I could be sure of the safe and appropriate dosing for any medication, preferably with the help of someone highly experienced like lilspaz68 or an expert on Real Rat Lovers Want to Know (as mentioned by SQ above). . But that's me...others may weigh in if they disagree.
Ultimately, your boy's life is in your hands, and blaming your current vet won't solve his problems. He needs quick action, and I can only think of 3 options before you 1) lobby harder to get needed meds VERY SOON from your current vet - within a week, not a month; and accept the doxy alone, if that's all you can get for now; 2) travel to find a more effective vet; and/or 3) resort to ordering online (ask lilspaz68 how), and get expert advice re dosing.
If option 1 proves futile, move on...your boy is counting on you.

 

[SQ]

Lilspaz68 can give you info re good places to order meds online and she can help you with dosing info if you let help know his weight.
Ratguide.com is a reliable medical resource and it gives info on drugs, side effects, dosage info etc,

If you can not go to a vet that knows enough about rats to provide proper care, then like Lise said, I would suggest you do this

In addition to antibiotics, your boy may also have a heart issue and need to be put on heart meds.

 

[Dena]

OR since it may be a while until the meds come to the vet, get the script from the vet (they should have no problem giving this), and fill it somewhere else yourself. You can order online, or take it to a pharmacy. Doxy is something commonly prescribed to humans, and should be really easy to get from a pharmacy. Your vet is CLEARLY not worried about your rat, and that's a shame.....

 

[Lise Patterson]

I now see that Thunder Bay is some 500k from the Manitoba border - a long drive indeed if you live very close to the border. Dryden has a few vets & is presumably closer...but you are best placed to know your closest alternatives. You do face special challenges living in a fairly remote spot.
Whether or not you turn elsewhere for help, I hope you can stay on good terms with your local vet - you may need her help with future emergencies.
Dena has a good point about asking your vet for a script. If she agrees, and her script provides for adequate dosing, this would certainly be preferable to "going solo" (and/or it could spare you a long car ride). With a script you might access doxy much faster than your vet, who is probably bound to order through a centralized supplier that specializes in drugs for veterinary use.

 

[_ratowner]

Hopefully I am able to answer all the questions and concerns that were presented.

Thunder Bay is actually around a 6 hours drive for me so it is definitely a “long drive” indeed. I may be able to go to Dryden but it still is quite a distance and I also don’t know how good their services would be and I may just come back with the same results.

I have been mistaken, I don’t know why I thought it would be a month. I think she said 10 days and it’s already been 2 days since she said that I think. I believe I thought that it was a month because he has already gone quite some time without proper medication because of the batgirl failing to work and then her not getting back in touch with us. The day we went in she said that she will order the doxycycline for him when she orders the other medication they need for the vet clinic. She was going to get it converted into a doxycycline suitable for rats instead of prescribing him human doxycycline. I don’t know why she is prescribing him just doxycycline and not a doxycycline combination with baytril, it’s odd.

I fear that if I “go solo” and order the medication online that it would take a long time to come in. I think that I will wait until we can get the medication from the vet when it comes in if you guys think that is the best bet and a good idea.

SQ, you mentioned something about him possibly having a heart problem. When I brought my boy in for a re-evaluation, she checked his heart at one point and later told me that it was normal and sounded like it should. I hope this helps or clears that up. She could be wrong though.

Thank you. All replies are appreciated. If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say it.

EDIT:
Is there anything at all I can do in the mean time to lessen his symptoms? I did order a cool air humidifier but that is not going to come before then. I was hoping my getting the air humidifier it can make is breathing somewhat better and put more moisture in the air since it was colder (still is) and their is a space heater in the room they are kept in that really dries out the air.

 

[_ratowner]

boost
Hopefully the medication comes in soon so I can start medicating him ASAP

 

[Dena]

The doxy she is ordering will be the same as "human" doxy. Just reconstituted, which you could very easily do yourself. She's likely going to get the capsule form, and break them open, and make a syrup out of it. It's super simple, and you use a capsule, and make the syrup as you run out of the mixture you made. That way, the doxy doesn't go bad (as a syrup only stays good for 14 days). So it would be the same doxy you would go pick up from a pharmacy in capsules. She may have said she will order it "when she orders the meds the clinic needs", but did she say when that would be? Because I'm sure the vet isn't going to take long to receive meds once they are ordered. But if they don't need to order other meds for a week or so longer, that's a week or so longer than you should have to wait. See what I'm saying? She didn't say "I'm ordering them now, they should be in in a couple of days". Even when a pharmacy orders meds, it only takes about 2-3 days for them to come in. She's obviously not in a big hurry to treat him.

Also, I've been told it's hard for them to just "listen" to the rat's heart, and hear murmurs or added or skipped beats, because of how fast it beats. I'm not sure of any other way they would "check" his heart. Which is why there's the treat and see method. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try the Lasix and see if that helps. From what I know, it takes fluid off the heart or lungs, and either way, should help with both I believe. I COULD be WRONG. I'm not a vet, and I haven't tried this. But I know there's ways to test if it's heart related. Lilspaz and SQ would know more about this than me.

Good luck!

 

[_ratowner]

The doxy she is ordering will be the same as "human" doxy. Just reconstituted, which you could very easily do yourself. She's likely going to get the capsule form, and break them open, and make a syrup out of it. It's super simple, and you use a capsule, and make the syrup as you run out of the mixture you made. That way, the doxy doesn't go bad (as a syrup only stays good for 14 days). So it would be the same doxy you would go pick up from a pharmacy in capsules. She may have said she will order it "when she orders the meds the clinic needs", but did she say when that would be? Because I'm sure the vet isn't going to take long to receive meds once they are ordered. But if they don't need to order other meds for a week or so longer, that's a week or so longer than you should have to wait. See what I'm saying? She didn't say "I'm ordering them now, they should be in in a couple of days". Even when a pharmacy orders meds, it only takes about 2-3 days for them to come in. She's obviously not in a big hurry to treat him.

Also, I've been told it's hard for them to just "listen" to the rat's heart, and hear murmurs or added or skipped beats, because of how fast it beats. I'm not sure of any other way they would "check" his heart. Which is why there's the treat and see method. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try the Lasix and see if that helps. From what I know, it takes fluid off the heart or lungs, and either way, should help with both I believe. I COULD be WRONG. I'm not a vet, and I haven't tried this. But I know there's ways to test if it's heart related. Lilspaz and SQ would know more about this than me.

Good luck!

Thank you.

Don’t I need a doctor or vet’s note to be able to get a prescription for doxycycline? I don’t think I will be able to just ask her for a prescription as she is already ordering medication for him. She said the medication will be delivered in 10 days, that is what I was told. I too realize that she isn’t in a rush to treat him. I have said before that I don’t really enjoy her as a vet because she doesn’t know a lot about rats and just turns down the information I try to give. She didn’t think that it was severe and that he would be fine without it. As I said before she said that it is incurable and that he will sound like that for the rest of his life (I think, I may have that messed up). It sucks but she is the only vet where I currently live.

 

[Dena]

She is right. Myco is something he will never fully be rid of. But what you are trying to PREVENT or HELP with the antibiotics, is a secondary infection from his immune system not being able to keep the Myco in check. When it can't, they are opened up for secondary infections to set in, like pneumonia. If that does, and left untreated, or not treated with the RIGHT antibiotics, for the RIGHT amount of time, then it's a death sentence. Most of us on here have experienced it first hand, and that's why some people commenting on this thread seem harsh. It's horrible for them to die that way (basically drowning) and horrible for you to witness. It goes downhill very quickly, and it's very sad to feel helpless while your rat is struggling to breathe. What she also may be saying he has and will have the rest of his life, is scarring on his lungs, which if I'm not mistaken, can be caused from improper treatment of respiratory infections. Either way, I'd call and ask if they've ordered their meds, and how long until they will fill yours. If not, then ask for a script. Then take it to the pharmacy, and fill it yourself. The vet should write for the capsules, so you can reconstitute them into a syrup, and so you will have enough to dose him for 4-6 weeks, without having to get refills every two weeks.

 

[_ratowner]

She is right. Myco is something he will never fully be rid of. But what you are trying to PREVENT or HELP with the antibiotics, is a secondary infection from his immune system not being able to keep the Myco in check. When it can't, they are opened up for secondary infections to set in, like pneumonia. If that does, and left untreated, or not treated with the RIGHT antibiotics, for the RIGHT amount of time, then it's a death sentence. Most of us on here have experienced it first hand, and that's why some people commenting on this thread seem harsh. It's horrible for them to die that way (basically drowning) and horrible for you to witness. It goes downhill very quickly, and it's very sad to feel helpless while your rat is struggling to breathe. What she also may be saying he has and will have the rest of his life, is scarring on his lungs, which if I'm not mistaken, can be caused from improper treatment of respiratory infections. Either way, I'd call and ask if they've ordered their meds, and how long until they will fill yours. If not, then ask for a script. Then take it to the pharmacy, and fill it yourself. The vet should write for the capsules, so you can reconstitute them into a syrup, and so you will have enough to dose him for 4-6 weeks, without having to get refills every two weeks.

So you think that I should go in and get doxycycline myself even though i am getting some from the vet? How do you convert it into a syrup? Do you think it will be okay to give him doxycycline (once converted) by itself or is the vet's information wrong and he needs a second medication to go with it? I think she said that he will be getting 3 treatments of 14 days or something like that. I said before that she said something about treating him with bronci something (sorry, I don't know what it was) if the doxycycline doesn't work.

 

[lilspaz68]

Ok we are going to take a few steps backward here so I can catch up
1) how old is your boy, how long has he been sick now?
2) what antibiotics did this vet try him on and for how long each?
3) do YOU or family members have any leftover antibiotics in your own med cupboards? Most antibiotics are human grade. Good ones are Ciprofloxacin, Doxycycline, Augmentin/clavamox, Azithromycin. 4) can you post a video of your boy so we can hear him, see his breathing and his overall demeanor.

 

[_ratowner]

Ok we are going to take a few steps backward here so I can catch up
1) how old is your boy, how long has he been sick now?
2) what antibiotics did this vet try him on and for how long each?
3) do YOU or family members have any leftover antibiotics in your own med cupboards? Most antibiotics are human grade. Good ones are Ciprofloxacin, Doxycycline, Augmentin/clavamox, Azithromycin. 4) can you post a video of your boy so we can hear him, see his breathing and his overall demeanor.

1) I honestly have no clue how old my boys are. They were surendered rats when I adopted them I believe. He has had breathing issues since maybe October. Please don’t get mad at me for this, I have been trying to treat him ever since then.
2) I can’t really remember all of the times I’ve had to medicate him but she has only prescribed him baytril. At first it was only for 10 days (in reality, less than that) but the latest was for 6 weeks but ran out 5 days early. Now she is prescribing him doxycycline alone for 3 rounds of 14 days.
3) No
4) I am not able to take a video right now as it is late but I will try to upload a video as soon as I can. His breathing is kind of on and off so I will have to see if I can catch it.

Thank you for your help.

 

[lilspaz68]

So your rat has really only been given baytril for this? At first for waaay too short a time and then finally a proper course but by then he likely had some resistance and the infection was deeply seated now. Poor lad.

Ok I would advise ordering antibiotics online so you don't have to continue down this road. Doxy alone will NOT help this boy.
Ladygouldianfinch and order the 10% Enrofloxcyn, and the Doxyvet. These will keep for a long time so even if you vet finally gets you the doxy solution you can just switch to it. This order could take a couple of weeks to arrive from the U.S. but it's better late than never.

I'll wait for the video.

Since you are mostly on your own here I can help with mixing/dosing of these antibiotics as long as you are able to give me a weight. If you don't have one, a small digital scale is invaluable to a rat owner. To mix these antibiotics you will need a sweet syrup (I use Smuckers caramel ice cream syrup), 2 small bottles with tight lids (pill bottles work), and a 1 ml syringe.

 

[Nadia Mazza]

Respirotory issues are always the most sensible subject for rats as it does happen pretty often. Even vets are never sure how to help our little buddies when sick. We do our best and there is no real manual as these rats have tiny little lungs so hard to cure . My last rat died of this. Tried several types and still ended up killing him. I also had another rat which had an allergic reaction and killed him too . Lets not be too harsh as we do our best and there is no magic pill . It hurts to watch them suffer deeply and I wish I could speak rat to atleast calm them down durong these times .peace!! We love our rats ,we do our best ,some battles are won and when they are lost we must accept.

 

[_ratowner]

So your rat has really only been given baytril for this? At first for waaay too short a time and then finally a proper course but by then he likely had some resistance and the infection was deeply seated now. Poor lad.

Ok I would advise ordering antibiotics online so you don't have to continue down this road. Doxy alone will NOT help this boy.
Ladygouldianfinch and order the 10% Enrofloxcyn, and the Doxyvet. These will keep for a long time so even if you vet finally gets you the doxy solution you can just switch to it. This order could take a couple of weeks to arrive from the U.S. but it's better late than never.

I'll wait for the video.

Since you are mostly on your own here I can help with mixing/dosing of these antibiotics as long as you are able to give me a weight. If you don't have one, a small digital scale is invaluable to a rat owner. To mix these antibiotics you will need a sweet syrup (I use Smuckers caramel ice cream syrup), 2 small bottles with tight lids (pill bottles work), and a 1 ml syringe.

Yeah, he has only been given baytril. The vet doesn't really seems to know what she is doing but they say that everyone at the clinic loves rats but they don't really do much to help mine. It really pains me that he has to go through this but I am trying to do what I can to help him. It would break my heart to loose them. During the longer course, the medication stopped working after a few days but I was still told to just finish the treatment to see if anything changes which I know was wrong but I trusted my vet like people tell me to do.

I hate to play this card but I am already paying around $90 just for the doxycycline ($60) and a different medication ($30) for unrelated reasons. I don't really have $50 to spend on bird medication plus $10 shipping. I know that I signed up for this when I adopted my rats and I knew that their would be vet visits but I didn't know the vet bills would be this expensive. Please don't suggest that I give away my boys because that is not an option and it hurts me when people say that.

He is either 1.2 or 1.3 pounds. My boys does quite enjoy strawberry syrup so I will try to get him some of that. So I am able to use old pill bottles? I will of course clean them out first.

Tha k you for your help.