Rat Scabs.help?

[Debbie]

I must admit, I have not read all the posts to this point, so please forgive me if I might offer advice that's already been given, or not get what is going on with your little girl.

I'm assuming you've treated for lice/mites and she's still scabby? Did you dose with Revolution, by their weight? It is very important to give them the proper dose by weighing them and calculating the dose. You can under dose and it will not do the trick. I learned that the hard way, when I had a friend dose her rats before coming to stay with us (while she was on vacation). She dosed everyone, by just putting a drop on them (without weighing appropriate doses).....and they arrived with lice still crawling on them.

Aside from that, and you believe she was properly dosed...I have had 2 rats over the years that were scabby, regardless of treatment, antibiotics, ab cream etc. I had one tested and she actually had staph infection. Her scabs never cleared up, no matter what we tried. My other girl Phoebe seems to get scabby without Metacam, and trimming a rouge "thumb" nail.

My friend (mentioned above) adopted a rattie that was covered in scabs (head to toe). She had been treated with Revo and antibiotics by her foster mom, and my friend ran the gambit of things as well after she adopted Lana. Vets couldn't identify the problem either. Lana is an extremely nervous rat and we all came to the belief that her scabs are a nervous condition. The more nervous she is,the more she scratches herself a mess. I've pet sat for them a few times, and each time they arrive, Lana gets more scabby...then calms down after being here a while. Lana has been scabby her whole life......and turns 3 this month.

I think some rats do end up being scabby without reason.

 

[benzin.fox]

Hi debbie and thanks a lot for your reply!!

yep,treated for lice/mites -the part you missed was the i actually over dosed her with revolution ...terrible i know.it was an accident! i plan to redose now that some time has passed.

-what metacam? and how will i know is genevieve has a staph infection? how do they test for that?

i have never seen ANYTHING crawling on any of my rats and i consider myself to have fairly good eye sight!

i hope genevieve isnt like lana..but then she doesnt seem to be a nervous rat at all! not as outgoing at audrey ratburn but definitely not nervous,i'd descrive marcelle as being more nervous than she is.

I have been told that rats can scratch themselves when they are in pain and can chew things too,is that true? does anyone know? i'm wondering if it's true if something is internally wrong with her now?

 

[skinnyhippiechick]

I also haven't read this entire thread and I don't want to worry you but... I will say that one of my girls, several years ago, had horrendous scabs and nothing seemed to work for her (her other two cagemates were fine and we treated as for parasites, allergies both food and environmental, powergrooming, self-barbering, etc...). She ended up with a nasty tumour, which was eventually removed, and shortly afterward the scabs began to heal. The vet who did the surgery commented that he had seen cases where internal issues could cause discomfort with ensuing itchiness without apparent cause. Hopefully this isn't the case for your lovely, but it was so for us.

Good luck!
dl
:wink2:

 

[user 78]

Metacam is a pain killer with some anti inflammatory properties. The anti inflammatory would be why a rat would stop itching, the skin is no longer swollen and itchy. As Genevieve has shown improvement with a Cortisone shot, it safe to say she's itchy.. But I think we knew that already. :wink:

As for a tumor causing the other problems, it is possible in some cases. Not so much that the tumor directly caused these problems, but that the body was being stressed, which in turn caused other problems.

If Genevieve is fine in every other way, I don't think a tumor of any sort if very likely right now. Also, she showed improvement before, which a paraneoplastic syndrome wouldn't have been "cured" by.

Go through your list, and if she shows no improvement after you've tried all of that, then you can really start to worry. It's very easy to see tumors, PT, rare conditions and diseases when you're looking for them. Start small and work your way up.

 

[benzin.fox]

ok i'm not going to worry just yet! but thanks for that. I'll keep it in mind (on the back of my mind so as not to fret!)
I'm going to start small and work my way up... oh dear if it ends up being something to worry about i'll be quite upset.

 

[jorats]

In another reference post, there's an article that states doxy treats a Staphylococcus aureus... I wonder if it's worth a try?

 

[benzin.fox]

another one to put on the list. thanks jorats

 

[Debbie]

The on thing about Metacam...it can't be used with steroids...so you would have to be sure the cortizone is out of her system, if you decide to start the metacam.

Personally...if you can avoid having her tested for staph, and talk your vet into trying and antibiotic that might address the chance...I'd go that route. We had our Millie in for a tumor removal when the vet suggested doing a "skin biopsy". For some reason, I had ASSUMed that would just be a deeper scraping, or that they could get that from the area where they removed the tumor. Ooooh no! I get Millie back, and she's got a big incision up on her back! They had to open her up in another place! I would not do that again, if I could help it.

 

[benzin.fox]

so far the absence of newspaper and wooden items in the cage hasnt seemed to make a difference to the scabs at all

is it time to move onto the next thing on the list or should i wait?

 

[user 78]

Did you retreat them with the Revolution or Ivermectin? Just removing the items isn't going to make the problem better, unfortunately. It will keep them from getting reinfected after you've treated them, though.

 

[benzin.fox]

sorry javakittie. i have confused myself. you are so right. I had been thinking that she may have been alergic to those items. I still have not re-treated with revolution because i cannot find an alternative shelving material.

I want to buy a ferret kingdom/nation but wont have the money for a month or so.

also- genevieve has continually groomed two large scabs on her back and they are always weeping and open. she has no more little dot scabs even on her face they are long and curved.

She will be back at the vet by monday..i wonder if they will do something to help this time or just take away the little money i have. * sulks*

 

[Fidget]

Gah, I'm so sorry to hear you're still dealing with this problem!

I may be repeating myself as I've posted here before, but I'm adding some pics of my Savanna when she had a skin condition that looks to me a lot like what you are dealing with. Neither Ivermectin or Polysporin treatments were helping, the owies just kept going from tiny to larger and multiplying. (there were more small ones, especially under her chin, but you can't see them so good unless the fur is wet)

I took her to the vet. My vet felt it started as a scratch or something that got infected by staph. She gave me Oribiotic ointment for it and it cleared up really well.

I tried to get some more Oribiotic when Fidget got a similar problem (Ivermectin & Polysporin also not helping). I'm certain it was the same thing Savanna had as it looked and acted the same. While it was on order I tried using the shampoo I mentioned earlier in this thread as I had to do something. (I only put a tiny bit on each part where her owies were, lathered and rinsed well) It did clear it up after just a few baths - everything they touched was also cleaned with bleach & rinsed really good at this time too tho so I can't say for sure it was all the shampoo tho I believe that is what cleared it.
The vet found that Oribiotic ointment was no longer available btw . She got a couple more small owies a while later and one shampoo did the the trick, hasn't come back.

Do these owies refuse to go away, some keep getting larger and there are more & more with time? It did with both my kids til I found something that was treating it. Both girls were also on baytril too which I don't expect helped the skin problem any but probably helped keep the myco at bay thru this assault on their systems.
What Jo said about Doxy helping staph problems, I've read that and have ordered some on-line as Fidget has bumblefoot that refuses to clear up with any topical treatment & baytril (it also is believed to be caused by a staph infection).

Apparently that pyoderma you posted a link to also is due to staph added to some pre-existing condition (injury, allergy, immunodeficiency, hormone disorder, etc etc). Which is what my vet suggested with Savanna (injury), and I'm certain that Fidget has immune problems..

If it looks like you're dealing with the same as I did I think I'd ask my vet about antibacterial shampoo & doxy if nothing is helping still. (or Oribiotic ointment if she can get it).

 

[user 78]

I would honestly think that the mites have been treated if the smaller scabs have cleared up. All of the mite scabs I've seen have been smaller, round scabs. When you tried separating her from her cagemates, didn't those longer, curved scabs clear up some?

 

[benzin.fox]

quick update before i rush out - sorry not ignoring the last few posts!

just took genevieve to the vet and she wants to rule out mites completely by giving her a course of cortisone treatment.Apparently this will make her itching crazy and ill notice right away if its mites.she thinks it may be alergies. she had a shot and has the course of cortisone tablets dissolved in water.

also she decided to start with some cortisone because if it stops the itching it will let the scabs heal and then we can concentrate on finding the cause of the problem.a few of the scabs are constantly open and oozing..poor girl

she also gave her a fish oil supplement to help her skin & a course of baytril for her resp problems.

$115 later... the vet wants to get to the root of the problem but wants to make sure its not mites before we go into what is causing the alergies..if it is alergies..

ALSO i have a ferret kingdom cage comming. HORRAY!! so i wont have to replace the shelving in the flight cage.

 

[jorats]

I'm glad your vet is not giving up. Sounds like a good plan.

 

[benzin.fox]

javakittie- i THINK they may have cleared up a little when she was alone but i only kept her alone for one night because she was far too stressed and started wheezing and sneezing a lot so i put her back in. Also yesterday at the vet I saw FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER and i spend A LOT of time watching these babies..i saw genevieve really,really get into scratching herself...i have never seen her like that. I really think she's doing it to herself after seeing that behavior. Ive also noticed that inthe power grooming department genevieve herself is the bully!! she's been pinning the other two rats down and giving them the grooming of their lives. perhaps their was a power struggle going on in the cage and i didnt notice? ithink there has been a bit of a shift lately in the 'whos the boss' stakes. on top of that though..she is definitely itchy. Today after the cortisone shot she is just resting not scratching herself into a mess. (its really hot today so im making sure she's not overwhelmed by heat too) i agree that i dont think it is mites.

fidget-your savanna is so pretty! she's very similar looking to genevieve.(ps- isnt it fun to give your rats really pretty names? haha)
the owies do refuse to go away and she is getting more of them. after the cortisone treatment i'm supposed to call the vet and report on how it's going and imgoing to mention your post to her and see what she thinks.

thanks so much

 

[Fidget]

******* it! I'm finding this ongoing thing very frustrating, it's honestly making me almost making me apoplectic to even come to this post still - after all this time!
This has been going on too long.
My own situation drained me emotionally trying to find help for my babe first and a diagnosis second, and now that we're recovered from it I can't stand to see someone wallowing around in it knowing how helpless it feels. Especially when you are going broke looking for help for Genevieve and you haven't even tried the $8 shampoo.

NO! Bugs have been ruled out for your girl long ago when you did the (revolution?ivermectin?). Didn't you go for ivermectin shots which cost a lot? Bugs are not it. Next time you suspect them pm me, I spend a lot on exams & antibiotics but very little on bug cure.
Your others are fine? Obviously she had an owie or has an allergy or a genetic predispotion that allowed a staph infection to take advantage of whatever door was open to walk in.

You need to first treat the presenting problem because it will have a detrimental effect on her overall healh and can make the damn myco kick in and then you're on a downhill slope with no end if you haven't identified the :stickpoke: . After that you need to find the initial problem -If it was a scratch that allowed the staph in then maybe this is a fluke like some healthy person who gets skin-eating disease or dies from tainted food when others don't. But maybe she's prime pickins for some bug cause she's already compromised. If she's compromised internally, genetically or immune-wise she likely will have her further problems.

I'm not gonna knock your vet, but I am gonna tell you that vets who are rattie-savvy are few and far-in-between.
The ones that are current on rattie needs and experienced in rattie care & surgery are the ones that are getting the patients regularly and truly interested in researching both new stuff on the net and physiological stuff on the kid.

I dunno, I go for getting meds or for the diagnostic equipment she has that I dont, I sure dont go to pay her to her spout stuff that is either a 'duh' to me or even a disagreement based on my online (our-your) experience. I get that from my experience with my kids or other's experience here.. My vet doesn't know that I have the benefit of knowing thru all Rat Shacks experiences of what worked and what didn't. From parents trying something that worked to something that didn't - to paying for extensive testing & even necropsies..
My vet sure doesn't have the benefit of what was learned, tho I do.

With all respect to doctors of all kinds they only know what they know. I feel like you are spending all kinds of money to get a diagnosis that is not as important at the moment as a cure for your kid first.. Trouble is with ratties that any secondary problem can make the myco kick in and then with the presenting problem they are 3 time losers.
You can't get your vet to listen to experience here, but you can hear it and tell your vet yes or no.

Why don't you rule out what worked for me & my kid before you continue more months of financial cost for you & physical cost for Genevieve? I only push like this because it's been going on so long for you both. It almost drove me nuts in much less time but my poor kid is healed from that now. FOR $9 TRY IT!!!!

 

[benzin.fox]

ok! let me try it out. Will you please give me the name of the shampoo again? I'm lost in all the posts in this topic!

-yes..it is draining...very..

 

[Fidget]

I'm sorry, I didn't see your reply til now.
Lord I hope I'm not steering you wrong, and I sure have no reason to tout the product except that it worked here, but I am just so frustrated for you after the frustration & worry I went thru til I got my kids fixed up.
Can't do any real harm tho. Just use as little as possible, I wet the kid so I could see where the owies were, then put shampoo on my finger and dabbed on all those spots and lathered in then rinsed real good.

8 in 1 Perfect Coat Antibacterial Deoderizing shampoo. Then it says 'eliminates odors' 'with natural botanical oils to condition skin & coat' 'long lasting scent green apple'.

 

[benzin.fox]

Thank you for that i'll track it down.

At the moment her skin is healing really well while on the cortisone treatment a good break for her i should think!