Mr. H, HED - One Tooth Down

[M0onkist]

I'm asking for Mr. Honeycomb - he's 23 months, his birthday is sometime in January. I have no idea if it actually is HED or not, but I'll sum up his symptoms as best I can.

Well, it's mainly two symptoms - one is my instinct, something just seems 'off' about the way he walks. He's not doing quite as well on ramps, and where a month or two ago when he could jump to climb up the side of the cage (following his Pips!), now he doesn't. That, and when I scoop him up and hold him so his feet are in the air (belly up pose, he likes it), his port hind leg (so nose pointing away from me, belly up, on my right) seems to have some kind of tremor in it. Nothing that he seems to notice, no pain, no swelling or anything like that.

Thoughts? His weight is I think in the normal range for a rat of his length and size etc., less pudgy than when you saw him when you were dropping off the Pips, Shelagh. They've been a great diet plan for him, lol

 

[eagle]

In my rats it is usually a general weaking of the hind end. Walking fine one minute then seems to stumble a bit. Less inclined to want to climb ramps to finally pulling themselves around with the front feet. I rank it right up there with PT in watching a rat go through it knowing there is little I can do other than make them comfortable with food and water within easy reach and keeping them clean.

 

[jorats]

I've actually seen it in all kinds of ways. The most popular is the obvious flip flop flip flop of the back feet. That's how I know they are starting to go. Then there's dragging and the back feet having a delay in catching up. I've also seen when the legs seem to fuse on one side so they drag themselves on a preferred side.

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

It sounds like HED to me. I remember a rescue CCH had who got the the point where you could constantly feel the tremors in his hind end. I know what you mean by his walking/climbing being "off" my sister has an older boy who is just starting to show his HED but it started with his walking being "off".

 

[southpawratties]

not to sound completely dumb, but what is HED?

 

[Zooy]

not to sound completely dumb, but what is HED?

Hind end degeneration.

 

[M0onkist]

No worries, SouthPaw - first time I heard HED I thought it was some kind of heart-related problem, not sure why.

I've been watching him really closely - he walks almost entirely on his ankles (without there being more than a callous on the ankles), which I realize is fairly typical for rats that age. The darn thing is he was plump (as Shelagh can attest, not obese but could use a diet, which he did get), and so obviously there's more skin than fat now, and it's hard to tell if his waist is pinching at all.

He is still... tickling my instinct that he's not moving right. But trying to put a finer point on that will require more in-depth observation, which I'll continue to do.

 

[lilspaz68]

The tremor is the beginning...you will see it in his toes first, then it will move up his leg, if you press your fingers gently on the muscle you will feel it jump. Then the tremors will stop and you have a paralyzed rat. It takes a long time usually, and you will watch the back end start to rumba, them leave a paw behind when they turn or are just walking...then they will drag them, and finally will only be able to drag them for the most part.

Asha's video showing the tremors from spinal nerve degeneration
http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/r ... CF5169.mp4

 

[M0onkist]

What's the best thing to do, Shelagh? I don't want to deprive the girls of ramps and such, but it might be too hard for him to handle - fine now, but maybe later...

And is there anything else I should be doing? Supplements, medications, rat physiotherapy? lol

 

[DadRat]

Our oldest, Dom, started HED signs early, maybe 22 months or so. We've found that ramp covers and ramps at shallow angles help him a lot, and lowering the water bottle so he doesn't have to stand up/hold onto the cage to drink.

We give a little glucosamine to our boys, but our vet feels it is more effective preemptive than as a treatment.

 

[M0onkist]

I checked for that muscle tic you mentioned, Shelagh, and he does have it - it's presenting so far only in the leg I'd mentioned previously (port hind leg). If I look closer, I see... well, what could be wasting of the muscle in his hind leg, I suppose? It isn't a waist pinch, but as he is a larger rat I don't know if he'll ever show the pinched waist.

 

[lilspaz68]

I checked for that muscle tic you mentioned, Shelagh, and he does have it - it's presenting so far only in the leg I'd mentioned previously (port hind leg). If I look closer, I see... well, what could be wasting of the muscle in his hind leg, I suppose? It isn't a waist pinch, but as he is a larger rat I don't know if he'll ever show the pinched waist.

the muscle will waste away in the hind end...its not being used so it disappears...its normal.

 

[M0onkist]

Okay - I'm sorry for all the questions, he's the first rat I've ever had to get HED, so I'm sort of frantically trying to assemble information. I'm not panicking, I don't think there's anything I can do surgically to shore up the nerve, more I just want to make sure his quality of life is as high as it was before this started.

 

[M0onkist]

I'm definitely going to make sure the ramps are at the lowest they can be - one is already. Looking into ramp liners too, as I doubt the girls will care, but I'm sure it would make things easier for Mr. H.

How much glucosamine do you give Dom, and what does he weigh, DadRat? I might try liquid B12 too, in a separate dish of food - saw in another HED thread that someone gave that to their rats.

 

[DadRat]

We use this, as it was the most cost effective one available,
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=21562

And give the boys 1/8th of a crushed tablet once a day. Our boys range from 1.25lbs to 1.6lbs.

 

[M0onkist]

He weighs just about the same. Thanks so much for the link, I'll put in an order tomorrow

 

[DadRat]

Yeah, there are other meds but that one seemed to have the least amount of other ingredients. If I remember correctly, we used ratguide.com for dosage, but for this particular pill that worked out to about 1/8th of a pill for an over 1lb rat. Our vet feels it is more effective preemptive than as a medication to help during, but the cost is negligible. We just mix the crushed pill into a little spoon of rice cereal and give it at bed time.

 

[lj]

Have a look at this thread too.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17341&start=0&hilit=hed+fidget

 

[crumbilina]

awwww, Poor Mr. Honeycomb! Hows he doing now?

I love his name btw - so cute

 

[M0onkist]

He doesn't seem to notice - he's definitely slowed down though. Right after Chance died he went into couch-potato mode (pretty standard among all rats I've had who've mourned), and when the girls got here he got very active and very happy. He's still happy, just... well, not as active in the vertical sense - he'd follow the girls climbing up the side of the cage sometimes, now he doesn't. He tends to stick to the level he's on, but of course he'll wobble his way up or down depending on what's on the other level that he needs (water or food, the girls keep moving the stashes around).

It was more me noticing at first - when I take him out of the cage, because he's so big, I often first hold him like a baby with his feet in the air. He likes that because I can cradle him and rub his belly - a few days ago I noticed one of his legs twitching, and it didn't seem to have a cause. So I put him in the cage and watched him, and he isn't moving about as easily. But he's perfectly happy, if just not as active.

The name has a whole story behind it, lol - he's one of the Beaverton Boys crew, and I was adopting one of them. Lynds showed me a lot of photos, or at least one of teach of the boys I could choose from. He was in a picture munching on Honeycomb Cereal, so I called the photo (and him, more or less) Mr. Honeycomb (Mr. Clean, Mr. Hammock were a couple of the others, I think). Then I showed Tim, my boyfriend, his photo and asked what we should call him (explained he was Mr. Honeycomb for ID purposes). He said Mr. Honeycomb was the perfect name. So later that evening Lynds went over to the cage where the boys were living and called out 'Mr. Honeycomb!' - he went tearing to the door as if he'd just been waiting for someone to guess that was his name!

Here's a link to a couple of photos of him - from a year ago, of course, lol, but he's as handsome now as he was then (minus the manly parts, he got hormonal and needed snipping).

Edit: It would help if I put the link in...
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=13585&hilit=Mr.+Honeycomb