jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I'm betting some of those wrestling matches are their courting dance. 
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they might be! I am so tempted to go check for signs of heat now lol.
what's especially funny about yesterday is that while Mason is the one who insists on power grooming, usually in wrestling matches Daisy is getting Mason on his back! so this was also the first time she was on her back squeaking. she may have been a little annoyed
what's especially funny about yesterday is that while Mason is the one who insists on power grooming, usually in wrestling matches Daisy is getting Mason on his back! so this was also the first time she was on her back squeaking. she may have been a little annoyed
ok, new problem in my mischief's ongoing intro dilemmas lol.
so, Mason and Daisy do wonderful in shared and neutral play areas, like I said. they even sleep together on the couch.
today I scrubbed out the cage I want to intro them to and placed them in there with some treats to distract them. at first, everything was ok. a little bit of squeaking and wrestling, but I expected that. but after about 5 minutes of Daisy persistently wanting to groom Mason (she is REALLY energetic. imagine an average girl rat and multiply it by 10), he started standing still with his eyes closed. I shut down the intro when he started squeaking and making a sound like a leak. it started out as a squeak, but just kept going. definitely not a hiss, but almost what seemed like a distress sound.
I read it as he was scared
I'm not quite sure what to do other than stepping back to non-neutral play time again.
so, Mason and Daisy do wonderful in shared and neutral play areas, like I said. they even sleep together on the couch.
today I scrubbed out the cage I want to intro them to and placed them in there with some treats to distract them. at first, everything was ok. a little bit of squeaking and wrestling, but I expected that. but after about 5 minutes of Daisy persistently wanting to groom Mason (she is REALLY energetic. imagine an average girl rat and multiply it by 10), he started standing still with his eyes closed. I shut down the intro when he started squeaking and making a sound like a leak. it started out as a squeak, but just kept going. definitely not a hiss, but almost what seemed like a distress sound.
I read it as he was scared
I'm not quite sure what to do other than stepping back to non-neutral play time again.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
See to me, I'd take that as him saying "oh yes, oh ya, right there, wait, a little to the left, oh ya, right there".
I'm betting they are ready to move in. Don't separate them unless you actually see one of them cutting up the other. No blood no foul.
I'm betting they are ready to move in. Don't separate them unless you actually see one of them cutting up the other. No blood no foul.
normally I play by the no blood, no foul rule. I guess what caught my attention though is he started to refuse to move, period. and around the leaky squeak time, he was starting to move slowly. ah, a better description might be this: she'd groom him. stop, and when she stopped he's start to slowly turn as if he was going to pounce on her (and he was also doing side kicks), but she'd start grooming him again and he'd freeze again. he was basically refusing to move from that spot in the cage. the second I opened the door though, he bolted out and hid his head under my arm, like he does when he's scared.
I think I might go do another cage scrub down and give it another shot though. maybe put in a different type of treat. one that they may be more likely to sit side by side with.
I think I might go do another cage scrub down and give it another shot though. maybe put in a different type of treat. one that they may be more likely to sit side by side with.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
How old are they? I can't remember...
they are soon to be 8 months. they were born Jan 5th and 7th. (I think I typed 8 months before, but meant 7 D
oh! and they're doing better the second time around. Mason is still wary, but is mostly just squeaking loudly out of protest. he's still getting still when Daisy is around, but he's not plastering himself to one spot in the cage.
Daisy remains un-phased :wink:
oh! and they're doing better the second time around. Mason is still wary, but is mostly just squeaking loudly out of protest. he's still getting still when Daisy is around, but he's not plastering himself to one spot in the cage.
Daisy remains un-phased :wink:
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
That is a tricky age... but usually with males, not females. Keep watching them, I'm betting the big boy is going to come around.
I'm hoping so! he's a skittish rat as it is (his whole litter was a bit aloof/skittish to degrees. very lovely, but despite a lot of socialization, they were still mostly timid), so the change may just be making him antsy. he's been neutered since late April. so luckily the hormonal stuff is a little better, but still skittish! he's a doll though, loves to cuddle and kiss, so I think once he relaxes he'll realize he's got a good buddy
luckily now he's mostly just loudly protesting. I don't normally do this, but I ended up pulling them out and letting them play for a little bit. he actually relaxed after that.
I'm also keeping small amounts of soft foods (soy yogurt, baby food, etc) in there (on and off) and that's helping him relax when sitting next to her.
luckily now he's mostly just loudly protesting. I don't normally do this, but I ended up pulling them out and letting them play for a little bit. he actually relaxed after that.
I'm also keeping small amounts of soft foods (soy yogurt, baby food, etc) in there (on and off) and that's helping him relax when sitting next to her.
handmeafish
Well-Known Member
I've had the babies for about 2 weeks now, and they are about 6 weeks, so I'm trying to get as much information on introing these guys as possible to prepare for them. I don't want anyone to get hurt. I was planning on waiting until they are 8 weeks to do intros.
To summarize, I rescued Ron who I think is about a year, maybe up to a year and a half, a few months ago. I adopted 2 babies who were about 4 weeks old at the time about 2 weeks ago. They are so cute. No one has been neutered.
I've had the cages next to each other, and I've been switching the blankets and stuff for about a week so they get used to each others scents. Ron has really perked up since I got the babies. He hasn't actually met them yet, but he's been so much more playful. I really think the intros will go well once I start them.
My questions are mostly about body language. I've seen descriptions of boxing and sidling and that kind of thing, but what else can I look for when I first do intros. What are some signs that they are getting along? What are some signs that a rat is getting stressed? Should I let Ron push the babies around as long as he doesn't hurt them? How long should the intros be at first? How many intros should I do before I let the babies move into the big cage? What should I use to scrub out Ron's current house? Should I be worried he will be possessive with his toys in the cage? What do you think about putting something like Vanilla on the babies to make them smell good?
Thanks
To summarize, I rescued Ron who I think is about a year, maybe up to a year and a half, a few months ago. I adopted 2 babies who were about 4 weeks old at the time about 2 weeks ago. They are so cute. No one has been neutered.
I've had the cages next to each other, and I've been switching the blankets and stuff for about a week so they get used to each others scents. Ron has really perked up since I got the babies. He hasn't actually met them yet, but he's been so much more playful. I really think the intros will go well once I start them.
My questions are mostly about body language. I've seen descriptions of boxing and sidling and that kind of thing, but what else can I look for when I first do intros. What are some signs that they are getting along? What are some signs that a rat is getting stressed? Should I let Ron push the babies around as long as he doesn't hurt them? How long should the intros be at first? How many intros should I do before I let the babies move into the big cage? What should I use to scrub out Ron's current house? Should I be worried he will be possessive with his toys in the cage? What do you think about putting something like Vanilla on the babies to make them smell good?
Thanks
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Coreline, it sounds like he's adjusting and things will go well. He might very need Daisy to get him out of his shell.
Handmeafish, those are great questions, but I assure you, once you start your intros, you are going to recognize the good signs from the bad. Ron is allowed to flip and pin, some boxing and sidling. If you see Ron rubbing his paws a lot and very fast on things and or the floor or you seem him lunge at a baby, or you see him get completely over top the baby, then those are not good signs and you should remove Ron a couple of inches away from baby. When Ron does something that worries you, gently push him away and say a firm NO.
You will know if it's going bad by watching the babies. They will be scared of him. If they are, then he's sending out bad signals. If they run around and play with him in close proximity then it's going good.
Handmeafish, those are great questions, but I assure you, once you start your intros, you are going to recognize the good signs from the bad. Ron is allowed to flip and pin, some boxing and sidling. If you see Ron rubbing his paws a lot and very fast on things and or the floor or you seem him lunge at a baby, or you see him get completely over top the baby, then those are not good signs and you should remove Ron a couple of inches away from baby. When Ron does something that worries you, gently push him away and say a firm NO.
You will know if it's going bad by watching the babies. They will be scared of him. If they are, then he's sending out bad signals. If they run around and play with him in close proximity then it's going good.
12 hours later and Poor Mason is still adjusting. I actually heard a whine squeak today D: one I associate with pain, but I gave him a once over and there's no sign of injury. just him being intimidated by Daisy. it's funny in a sense, because she's insisting on sleeping in hammocks with him, but if he's eating and she comes near him, he'll drop his food and squeak. he's still freezing when she's near.
I don't think I am going to worry about the whine squeak at the moment. until I see another sign of injury, I'm assuming it's a stress squeak. sort of like that long drawn out one from yesterday. plus, the second they are out of their cage, they are best buds again. so for now, I'm thinking Mason is stressed with the changes a bit.
edit:
I finally saw the "leak squeak" in action. Daisy flipped him during play time today and Mason was obviously not happy about it (mostly giving in, but doing a little shoving back). after she power groomed him, he let out the leak squeak. I think he's just protesting. there's a lot of squeaking and I think they're still working out that Daisy wants to be boss in the cage.
I'm mostly just worried about his stress. he's not as active as normal and doesn't run to the door when called, as usual. I'll probably re-evaluate the situation in 24 hours, as long as no actual fights break out.
I don't think I am going to worry about the whine squeak at the moment. until I see another sign of injury, I'm assuming it's a stress squeak. sort of like that long drawn out one from yesterday. plus, the second they are out of their cage, they are best buds again. so for now, I'm thinking Mason is stressed with the changes a bit.
edit:
I finally saw the "leak squeak" in action. Daisy flipped him during play time today and Mason was obviously not happy about it (mostly giving in, but doing a little shoving back). after she power groomed him, he let out the leak squeak. I think he's just protesting. there's a lot of squeaking and I think they're still working out that Daisy wants to be boss in the cage.
I'm mostly just worried about his stress. he's not as active as normal and doesn't run to the door when called, as usual. I'll probably re-evaluate the situation in 24 hours, as long as no actual fights break out.
wonderrodent
Well-Known Member
For all the intro-pros! Here is my situation and I need advice:
I took in 4 sisters and two of them are left (the other two got adopted). Aruba and Rhodos are both spayed. I've had them since mid April. They used to be fine - sweet girls, active, liked to groom me and jumping on me (well, always skittish when there was noise like plastic paper or when I made a sudden movement or getting up from sitting on the floor). We were gone in August for 2 weeks so one of our fosters took care of them. Once back at my home, they were so skittish like I have never seen before. Especially Rhodos. Aruba isn't so bad. Anyway, our rescue has 5 girls from a litter of 11 that I will take in next week. I would like to intro them to Aruba and Rhodos so that I only have to deal with one set of rats (they are all healthy). My questions:
Do you think it would help Aruba and Rhodos with their skittishness when they have more friends?
How would I go about introducing 2 bonded females to 5 bonded females (they are not spayed yet, I don't think, but they definitely will soon)? I never had to intro that many rats at the same time.
Any help would be much appreciated!
I took in 4 sisters and two of them are left (the other two got adopted). Aruba and Rhodos are both spayed. I've had them since mid April. They used to be fine - sweet girls, active, liked to groom me and jumping on me (well, always skittish when there was noise like plastic paper or when I made a sudden movement or getting up from sitting on the floor). We were gone in August for 2 weeks so one of our fosters took care of them. Once back at my home, they were so skittish like I have never seen before. Especially Rhodos. Aruba isn't so bad. Anyway, our rescue has 5 girls from a litter of 11 that I will take in next week. I would like to intro them to Aruba and Rhodos so that I only have to deal with one set of rats (they are all healthy). My questions:
Do you think it would help Aruba and Rhodos with their skittishness when they have more friends?
How would I go about introducing 2 bonded females to 5 bonded females (they are not spayed yet, I don't think, but they definitely will soon)? I never had to intro that many rats at the same time.
Any help would be much appreciated!
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Ooh, congRATS! Astrid!!
If the 5 girls are stable and happy, they might very well help the two girls come out of their shell. Also, a daily routine might help as well.
If they were mine, I'd have all 7 together in the bathroom and watch to see if there are any trouble spots. Watch all the rats' body language, it will tell you who you need to concentrate on.
If the 5 girls are stable and happy, they might very well help the two girls come out of their shell. Also, a daily routine might help as well.
If they were mine, I'd have all 7 together in the bathroom and watch to see if there are any trouble spots. Watch all the rats' body language, it will tell you who you need to concentrate on.
wonderrodent
Well-Known Member
Thanks Jo! They are all just fosters and need lots of socialization. I thought 5 more girls - what the heck. What's 5 more, right? I got the big cage and the room for them. I am kind of disappointed about Aruba and Rhodos because I spend a lot of time with them and they are still so skittish. As far as I know the 5 girls are also very skittish and not well socialized (I think they are about 4 months old or so. Aruba and Rhodos are 6 months).
So you think all 7 at the same time?? Wow! I hope I can handle that bunch LOL.
Do you find that girls can be more skittish than boys in general?
So you think all 7 at the same time?? Wow! I hope I can handle that bunch LOL.
Do you find that girls can be more skittish than boys in general?
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
It's been my experience that boys are more skittish than girls but then, I've had more boys than girls so I might not have had the skittish girls.
So 7 skittish rats. Oh boy. I'm betting the intros will go smooth but, it's the work you've got ahead of you. Arm yourself with treats and lots of out time. If you can, set a daily routine. Do the same thing everyday so they can set their clock by it, if you know what I mean. For exemple, in the mornings, each rat gets a pea. In the evenings, each rat gets a Cheerio which they must take from your fingers. After a week or two like this, you get yourself some baby cereal, you dip your finger in baby cereal and each rat gets to lick it off you. A week or so later, each rat gets picked up and licks the baby cereal or other licky food off the spoon while in your hands/arms. ...and so on.
So 7 skittish rats. Oh boy. I'm betting the intros will go smooth but, it's the work you've got ahead of you. Arm yourself with treats and lots of out time. If you can, set a daily routine. Do the same thing everyday so they can set their clock by it, if you know what I mean. For exemple, in the mornings, each rat gets a pea. In the evenings, each rat gets a Cheerio which they must take from your fingers. After a week or two like this, you get yourself some baby cereal, you dip your finger in baby cereal and each rat gets to lick it off you. A week or so later, each rat gets picked up and licks the baby cereal or other licky food off the spoon while in your hands/arms. ...and so on.
wonderrodent
Well-Known Member
Oh boy is right LOL!
I always have a strict routine when I let the girls out, but I'll definitely try the treat routine. Thanks a lot, Jo. I'll keep you updated on the progress. I might have a few questions in between...
I always have a strict routine when I let the girls out, but I'll definitely try the treat routine. Thanks a lot, Jo. I'll keep you updated on the progress. I might have a few questions in between...
handmeafish
Well-Known Member
So i know its early, but I had some friends over today, and we were playing with the babies, and Ron seemed so excited to get out and see them, so I figured I'd hold him, and my friends could hold the babies and we could see how it went...
Well they all did great!!! I have never seen Ron more excited and happy. He was very good with the little guys, and clearly sending them "good vibes" because the babies were chasing him around, and they were all playing. After about 10 minutes they snuggled up together in a sweatshirt.
I put the babies back in their cage, and Ron back in his, and everyone had a good long nap. I'm gonna continue to take it slow, so Ron doesn't get overwhelmed, but I think these guys are just when Ron needs, and they are gonna be the best of friends.
Jo- In your post before you said " you see him get completely over top the baby" to remove him. There were a few times where ron would walk completely over a baby, and scent mark them. He never stopped and stood over them, he would always continue moving.... they seemed fine with this, and it didn't seem threating... and a few times the babies were ducking their head and running under him like it was a game. Also he was pushing the babies back legs up and smelling their bums... No one protested to this, and he was only smelling, so I let it happen figuring it was an alpha thing, or a rat greeting thing... am I right, or way off here.
Well they all did great!!! I have never seen Ron more excited and happy. He was very good with the little guys, and clearly sending them "good vibes" because the babies were chasing him around, and they were all playing. After about 10 minutes they snuggled up together in a sweatshirt.
I put the babies back in their cage, and Ron back in his, and everyone had a good long nap. I'm gonna continue to take it slow, so Ron doesn't get overwhelmed, but I think these guys are just when Ron needs, and they are gonna be the best of friends.
Jo- In your post before you said " you see him get completely over top the baby" to remove him. There were a few times where ron would walk completely over a baby, and scent mark them. He never stopped and stood over them, he would always continue moving.... they seemed fine with this, and it didn't seem threating... and a few times the babies were ducking their head and running under him like it was a game. Also he was pushing the babies back legs up and smelling their bums... No one protested to this, and he was only smelling, so I let it happen figuring it was an alpha thing, or a rat greeting thing... am I right, or way off here.
ok, more intro thread hogging
Mason got a little stressed from the move to the cage and has some nasal stuff going on now (luckily clear lungs, so we've voted to not treat for a short observation period.). obviously until that observation period is up, i am not going to start intros. just kind of plotting this out!
basically the next move is going to be to re-start intros with these two groups: Mason/Daisy (8m girl and neutered boy) & Blue/Mini/Hazel/Roxy (Blue, Hazel, and Mini ages are not known, but we guess around 10 - 12 months. Roxy is Daisy's sister and also 8 months. Mini is Daisy/Roxy's mom. Hazel is Mason's mom. Blue is spayed.)
before Blue and Mini gave Mason trouble (biting).
one thing I am wondering is that the room the girls cage is in is also their free time room. might this make intros a little more difficult? Mini definitely sees the room as hers. big time. obviously Mason isn't free roaming in there with them in early intros, but she rushes his cage, even when it's up high.
Mason got a little stressed from the move to the cage and has some nasal stuff going on now (luckily clear lungs, so we've voted to not treat for a short observation period.). obviously until that observation period is up, i am not going to start intros. just kind of plotting this out!
basically the next move is going to be to re-start intros with these two groups: Mason/Daisy (8m girl and neutered boy) & Blue/Mini/Hazel/Roxy (Blue, Hazel, and Mini ages are not known, but we guess around 10 - 12 months. Roxy is Daisy's sister and also 8 months. Mini is Daisy/Roxy's mom. Hazel is Mason's mom. Blue is spayed.)
before Blue and Mini gave Mason trouble (biting).
one thing I am wondering is that the room the girls cage is in is also their free time room. might this make intros a little more difficult? Mini definitely sees the room as hers. big time. obviously Mason isn't free roaming in there with them in early intros, but she rushes his cage, even when it's up high.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
It's fine, in fact, I'd let Mason use that room for his play time as well. It will be easier for Mini to start smelling him around. Her charging the cage is perfectly normal as well. And don't let it scare you into thinking that she will be aggressive with him. Rats act completely different and usually quite mean when it's between bars but face to face is entirely different.
