I'm looking for help on Zymbals Gland Tumors

[Debbie]

Oh Kim, I'm so glad to hear this news. However, those molar abscesses can be hard to treat. I would really encourage you to keep Tooey on antibiotics for longer than just 7 days for something like this. It can be harder to get the infection cleared up. As for Cefa and diareeha, in all the years I've used it, I've only had a small handful get squishy poo, and that was easily rectified by giving them a bit of acidopholius twice a day. I also just made sure they had a little something in their tummies before giving meds. I have one girl that's been on Cefa for most of her life, due to a reocurring ear infection. And she's done great. Just giving you this info, in the event the Baytril alone doesn't do the trick and you'd like to see if you can get the cefa. In a case for ear infections and infections of the mouth and face, they do tend to take a while to heal. I've never treated an ear infection for less than 6 weeks on antibiotics....and it sounds like Tooey's is in his mouth, face and ear.

I think you'll find a few differing opinions here on how to treat abscesses once you are back home. I'll tell you what's always worked for us (we've had many an abscess over the years, and none of mine have ever reinfected). We use the irrgated syringes (the ones with the long plastic tips), and mixed a 10 to 1 Chorohexidine flush. We keep the abscess "hole" open by flushing it with the Cloro mix (we warm it up a bit, so it's not cold) twice a day. After it's flushed, we use another irrigated syringe that has neosporin in it. We pack the inside of the abscess with the neo. This twice a day routine should be done for several days (at least 5). It helps to keep the infection from coming back, and it also helps keep that open, so the neo can heal it from the inside out.

Give that dear boy a bit gentle smooch from all of us. I'm so glad it wasn't a ZG!!!

 

[Kimby22]

Thank you for the info Debbie. I didn't really go into this earlier but I was very disappointed in my vet. She was not willing to work with me and I could almost see the hackles rise as I brought up the cef. I just let it go, but I am looking for another vet with more Rattie experience and more flexibility. (She even gave me this long lecture about not using Neosporin *lol*). I plan on talking to another vet before these antibiotics are done. It really ticks me off how she just shut down on me. I can't hang with someone who doesn't respect me enough to work with me. To assume that she knows more, knows better, or knows all has turned me off of that place for any of my animals (and there are a lot). No worries though, I will find Tooey a good doc if I have to drive 100 miles.

I thought that 7 days was too short too considering what I've read and now heard from others. I've never heard of Chorohexidine so I am trying to see if it's something I can pick out a product that I can get at my local drugstore tomorrow. What product do you use and where do you pick it up?

 

[Fidget]

Thank you for the info Debbie. I didn't really go into this earlier but I was very disappointed in my vet. She was not willing to work with me and I could almost see the hackles rise as I brought up the cef. I just let it go, but I am looking for another vet with more Rattie experience and more flexibility. (She even gave me this long lecture about not using Neosporin *lol*). I plan on talking to another vet before these antibiotics are done. It really ticks me off how she just shut down on me. I can't hang with someone who doesn't respect me enough to work with me. To assume that she knows more, knows better, or knows all has turned me off of that place for any of my animals (and there are a lot). No worries though, I will find Tooey a good doc if I have to drive 100 miles.

I thought that 7 days was too short too considering what I've read and now heard from others. I've never heard of Chorohexidine so I am trying to see if it's something I can pick out a product that I can get at my local drugstore tomorrow. What product do you use and where do you pick it up?

I so understand how it feels to feel your vet is not listening to you or working in tandem with you. I really commend you for looking further, I hope that there is someone in your area that really is either better experienced or more willing to learn from you. Unfortunately that's not a certainty. I think most vet's experience with rats is as test subjects or anatomy lessens, not as beloved pets. In normal human fashion some will change their viewpoint but not their actions, some will consider rat parents weird, just the 'special' one will really see our babes thru our eyes or at least thru medically interested eyes cause they listen to us, and a rare gem might go on to want to learn more. I hope you can find a vet you are good with, a caring & knowledgeable live rat vet is a TREASURE..

 

[Kimby22]

Thanks Fidget. I'm remaining optimistic in my pursuit. I did feel like she thought she was just dealing with some wierdo which really surprised me because she's taken great care of my other animals in the past but of course they were dogs and cats. She even put down my most beloved dog ever!

Honestly I think the clinic has grown too big, too impersonal, and I need to switch completely. I used to walk in there and everyone knew who I was, had time to chat it up a little, and seemed genuine. Now I call to get an appointment and I get rushed off the phone before they even find out why I'm coming in, no one knows who I am anymore which I guess isn't terrible (just missed), and you can almost feel them rushing you through the appointments (the docs, not the vet techs, they are just wonderful). Do you know that when I was living on school loans, I would actually budget $1000 for vet care and I would just write them a check for that amount and work my way down through the credit. I've referred countles long term customers to them as well *grrrrrrrrrrr*

I better stop *lol*, I'm just pissing myself off now. I think I will write a letter to the owner and realize that he may not care, but that's ok, it's not for him, it's for me.

Well, thanks for listening to my rant *lol* I noticed you have a boy named Touille, my guy Tooey's name was based on that very name

 

[Fidget]

I guess fairly you can't blame a vet who feels rats are test subjects not pets. They'll treat them, but hey, we wouldn't give the same effort to something we had no interest in as something we did. That's why an interested vet is just as valuable (or more) as a knowledgeable one. It's not easy being a rat (unless you have a good human parent) or a ratparent (unless you have a good vet - and even then heartbreak comes too often).

I remember going to department stores with my grandma and she would get right bent out of shape if someone didn't appear right away to 'take care' of us. I thought that was odd, but she said it used to be you went in a store and someone was there to greet & help you.
Maybe it's like that with vets now? Actually I remember the doctor coming to the house for my daughter 25 years ago, I don't think that happens any more either...

Little Mischief Rescue named him Ratatouille. I had loved friend named Huey who I called Tuey who died, so I kept the 'Touille'. Kisses to your Tooey.
Peace to your heart.

 

[Moon]

It has always been recommended not to use Neosporin on abcesses.

If I were you I would speak to the vet directly, and tell her you want a vet who is more willing to discuss what you want in terms of rat care and procedures, and that you WILL shop around for a vet who is willing to learn.

 

[Debbie]

I'm sorry you went through all that yesterday, Kim. But good for you to keep looking if you feel you are not getting the attention you deserve. I think the one thing that always amazes me when a vet acts this way, they are working for YOU! Granted, their job is to give you their opinions and recommendations, because they are the medical "experts". BUT, I think any vet that is not willing to work with you and listen isn't worth having.

As for the Cefa, many vets still don't use it. So if it were for that subject alone, I wouldn't think your vet a "bad" one.

The chlorohexidine wash is a blue solution. You often see it in bottles at the cat dog vet used for cleaning ears and wounds.

Others here may warn you against Neosporin as well. When I use it on scratches, scrapes etc, I always use a very thin layer, then give the rattie a cookie while it soaks in. They really shouldn't be able to freely eat it, but it's not going to kill them either. We also use a silva slufadiazine cream from the vet in our abscess wounds, but it breaks down fast, and just runs right back out. That's why our vet started using the Neo. I still try to keep the rattie occupied for a while after packing the wound, to let it soak in. But males aren't as religious about wanting to get in their and clean out the Neo anyway (usually). And in Tooey's case, it's on his face anyway. So he's not going to have too much access to it.

I did just think of something though. We tried Neosporin on Sadie when the tumor opened up a bit. When she groomed her face, she got a bit of the neo in her eye and it did irritate it a bit. Of course, the opening was right by her eye though.. So maybe you'll still be ok with Tooey. Where is the hole of the abscess? By his ear hopefully, so you are good to go.

I think you are right on track, looking for another vet to get more antibiotics. I honestly don't think 7 days is enough in this case, and you might end up right back where you started if you stop too soon.

Keep us posted

 

[lilspaz68]

I personally am a saline flush kinda gal. :lol:

Abs if necessary, and one like his definitely needs abs.

I would hold off on writing that letter, until you have another rat vet in place

How close are you to Toledo?

 

[Kimby22]

Thanks again everyone.
As far as finding a new vet, I definitely won't write that letter first, but I doubt I'll go back to them. They were terrific to my cats and dogs in the past and up until about 6 months to a year ago I was very happy with them. Now I really do think that they are too big now, and I was actually traveling way out of the way to go to them. I have another friend that works as a vet tech at a hosp right down the street that has some exotic vets that I'm going to check out.

I am only a two hour drive from Toledo and would be very willing to make that drive if you have someone you reccomend there and I find no one closer.

Tooey's Lance is right back by his ear although I'm not having much luck getting it to stay open. I am using warm compresses and I am rinsing with saline for right now. It's not open enough to put anything inside right now. I keep gently massaging the area (which he thinks is just wonderful) in the hopes of keeping it as the draining spot. As of right now, it has not filled up at again. He has now had three doses of Baytril.

 

[Kimby22]

This is Tooey right after his vet appointment


But after a little bit of cuddling.......


We were both all smiles!

 

[Kimby22]

"Tooey Too cute"

 

[mamarat]

Aww he is so cute. :heart:

 

[Debbie]

Awe, he looks like a new man! :joy:

 

[Kimby22]

Just to throw this out there again, could someone please advise me on proper portion size for feeding Tooey. I have been feeding him too much, but I am afraid to feed him too little. I was just free feeding him before, but I don't really know how much to put out and how often.

Also, do rats need some kind of heat source available?

Thanks

 

[lilspaz68]

Rats have a lovely fur coat, and we give them warm places to hide so they don't usually need a heat source unless they are sick or its very very cold.

Portion size...you can limit his food, but he's older right? I don't "diet" older rats myself, there's really no point. He looks like a big chunky boy but he doesn't seem obese or anything like that. Is he all squooshy or is he a bit solid?

What are you feeding him and we'll go from there. It might not be the portions but what you are feeding

He's wonderful, I really adore big PEW boys. :heart: :heart:

 

[Debbie]

I'm afraid I won't be much help on portion size I've always had a tendency for fattie ratties. It's just so hard to say no to those sweet begging faces.

My vet ALWAYS tells me my rats are fat, but I'm totally with lilspaz68, when they are older, I actually do all I can to keep them beefed up. As they start to decline in age, they tend to get very thin. That extra weight when they are younger can help later on. (I have a 32 month old boy that was once 850 grams, but is now very thin...if I hadn't had all the weight on him, I don't know that he'd still be around today).

Please post what you feed Tooey, and I'm sure there are many folks that would love to help with advice.

We feed the Harlan Tekklad blocks (though I'm afraid mine have more fun stock piling than eating them), and a grain/cereal mix (which I know is the culprit for mine being fat) that has things like Chex, cherrios, triticale, rolled barley flakes, dried pasta etc. It's also important they get fresh foods each day. (I think I sent you that list earlier :wink2: ).

I think Tooey looks juuuuust right. A very happy boy indeed. :heart:

 

[jorats]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that... Many vets have their methods that works well for them and will stand by them strongly. If you were seeing my vet, you would get the same thing... no neosporin and no cefa meds either. But that doesn't make the vet not rat savvy. My vet is a most wonderful exotic vet but uses methods that she knows has worked for her in the past. So don't be too fast to dismiss her...
The problem with neosporin... it promotes healing and if the abscess heals from the outside in, it will trap the infection which can then continue to bore through the body and popping up in different places. Years ago, this happened to me. I didn't listen to my vet and did the neosporin. Max had to be put to sleep because his body filled up with abscesses because it no longer had anywhere to drain. I never use neosporin on my rats anymore. As for the cefa, that vet might have lost some rats on it and so doesn't like to use it anymore. The other meds do work as well. We had one med Bactrim, caused an allergic reaction in one of our rats here and he died from it... my vet no longer will prescribe that med even though it has worked wonders on our other rats. Vets live and learn from their experience... they change their protocol each time something goes wrong.

I love those pics you both look wonderful!
That abscess looks very clean, it may not be a tooth abscess, those usually smell really bad. Continue with the flushing, if you want to try neosporin, go ahead but keep in mind what it can do so keep a close watch on it. After about 5 days on the meds, go back for more... ask for a recheck. The vet will be able to tell what's happening with it and what else is needed.

As for food, it all depends what you feed your baby. We feed only rat blocks and veggies. If you feed treats, you can cut out all treats and replace it with something healthier, that will help him lose weight but remain strong.

 

[jorats]

I just wanted to add... I too don't diet my older rats but mine are kept slim throughout their lives and I have had quite a few aged very well being thin. My Loki for example lived to 45 months old... But the problem is if they become sick when slim, then it's hard for them to fight the illness.
My vet has always told me... keep them very slim until about 2 years old, then start to make them a bit fatter, by increasing healthy treats and adding the "good" fat in their diet, like adding olive oil to some baby cereal.

 

[Debbie]

I certainly don't want to start a disagreement in Kim's thread about Tooey, but it seems as though each time I discuss neosporin, I'm continually shot down, without folks really listening to what I'm advising.

I would like to make it clear, I never suggest that anyone should put neosporin ON an abscess. I agree 100% with everyone that an abscess has to heal from the INSIDE out. It is for this very reason that something (be it neosporin, silver sulfadiazine cream or anything antibiotic) has to be packed INSIDE the abscess "hole" and twice daily flushing to keep it OPEN is a must.

I have heard so many stories of folks who don't do anything, and the infection is allowed to return. i.e if there is nothing on the inside of that abscess hole to promote it's healing from the inside out....it's a breeding ground for return infection.

I rarely disagree with others, unless it's something I feel strongly about. I too have a wonderful exotic vet clinic (my surgeon vet has been featured in Ferret's magazine on a number of occasions for his techniques in adrenal and other small animals surgeries). I've just learned the hard way, the do's and don'ts about abscess care and can honestly say we have had nothing but success with the method I mention above.

Thankfully, the great thing about forums like this, we all have different opinions and are allowed to share them. There's many different right reasons.

Cefa was a drug that for a while, our surgeon vet would not recommend due to it's possible gut upset properties. It was the one vet at the clinic that also had a PHD in pharmacudical (sp) medicine that first told me about the cefa. Baytril can also cause stomach upset (my poor Sophie is on it and has to have acidopholus :sad3: ). I know that many vets still don't use Cefa and I think it's used even less in Canada, though I know some folks that do use it up there.

 

[lilspaz68]

I remember someone telling me :scratch: that Ontario (Canadian?) vets cannot get Cefa anymore. :scratch: