SQ
Senior Member - Vegan for the animals
Since I did not and do not have ulterior motives, I guess that says a great deal about you.
Decisions about care - sorry, screwed up, votes disappeared
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Dahlas
Well-Known Member
SQ said:
Are you talking to me? Or all the people who agree with me.....come off it Holly.
Do you think people are stupid.....they all know why you created it.
Go on continue to discuss it. I am not trying to hyjack your post....I stated my opinion....like everyone else.
sprite71
Well-Known Member
I dont care either which way if it was to help them clear thier concience or not...
Its a valid question and we will all run into this sooner or later, especially if we are doing fosters and rescues.. To assume its for the ladies and to make thier choice right is presumtious. We all have differinng opinions especially on espays.. So lets let this argument on why it was posted rest...
Its a valid question and we will all run into this sooner or later, especially if we are doing fosters and rescues.. To assume its for the ladies and to make thier choice right is presumtious. We all have differinng opinions especially on espays.. So lets let this argument on why it was posted rest...
trillium
Well-Known Member
I voted for teenage rats, adult rats and elderly rats.
? I can, here, without any judgment from people (maybe helpful feedback?) indicate that I'll decide to let the rats I chose in the poll die by simply choosing not to feed them anymore? That's a perspective on rat care that I hadn't considered. Did I misread the options? I just don't think I understand how this works in a "pet" scenario. Is it something where if I had to choose between the rats eating or myself eating to survive? Can someone explain this to me?
There is a minimum basic level of care that reasonable pet owners would provide, and I can't imagine that the choices I picked fit there, or that my choices are what the poll is really trying to evaluate? Maybe the question needs a bit of clarification to narrow it down.
I did find the discussion about how far to go in the care of litters, while difficult, a good forum for people to share perspectives and it helps me to understand what people feel about the issues.
Having done the syringe feeding, mush making, begging, trying every hour, pleading, crying, joy at little licks of liquids off of fingertips, situations that can arise toward the tail end of rattie lives. I also am not sure how far I really would judge anyone that way either. Life's choices are not always straightforward, and I can't say an old/very sick rattie who refuses to eat the food provided in the cage and passes while cuddled in with his or her cagemates a few days or a week earlier than a rattie I nurse along for the extra time is somehow worse off. I still think food should be provided for him/her -- but many of the rats adopted on this forum are living a second chance with rescuers.
I can wish that everyone could spend hours syringe feeding, altering and trying multiplicities of medications, spending thousands of dollars in vet bills, and making home mixed mushes for their ratties, but I'm pretty sure that's not realistically always an option for everyone. But, we love our ratties dearly and they have play, friends, love, and fun that they would never have experienced otherwise.
? I can, here, without any judgment from people (maybe helpful feedback?) indicate that I'll decide to let the rats I chose in the poll die by simply choosing not to feed them anymore? That's a perspective on rat care that I hadn't considered. Did I misread the options? I just don't think I understand how this works in a "pet" scenario. Is it something where if I had to choose between the rats eating or myself eating to survive? Can someone explain this to me?
There is a minimum basic level of care that reasonable pet owners would provide, and I can't imagine that the choices I picked fit there, or that my choices are what the poll is really trying to evaluate? Maybe the question needs a bit of clarification to narrow it down.
I did find the discussion about how far to go in the care of litters, while difficult, a good forum for people to share perspectives and it helps me to understand what people feel about the issues.
Having done the syringe feeding, mush making, begging, trying every hour, pleading, crying, joy at little licks of liquids off of fingertips, situations that can arise toward the tail end of rattie lives. I also am not sure how far I really would judge anyone that way either. Life's choices are not always straightforward, and I can't say an old/very sick rattie who refuses to eat the food provided in the cage and passes while cuddled in with his or her cagemates a few days or a week earlier than a rattie I nurse along for the extra time is somehow worse off. I still think food should be provided for him/her -- but many of the rats adopted on this forum are living a second chance with rescuers.
I can wish that everyone could spend hours syringe feeding, altering and trying multiplicities of medications, spending thousands of dollars in vet bills, and making home mixed mushes for their ratties, but I'm pretty sure that's not realistically always an option for everyone. But, we love our ratties dearly and they have play, friends, love, and fun that they would never have experienced otherwise.
sketchi
Well-Known Member
I think this
should be rephrased as
because I doubt ANYONE here would just *starve* a rat to death. adequate food IS provided, just in some cases the rat is unable to get to it. I believe food is always provided, the way the question is phrased at the moment makes it sound like 'when is it ok to neglect your pet', which is ...never. the way the question is phrased just makes it seem very biased in my opinion.
food was never the issue, it's an issue of how far someone should go to ensure the food gets inside the (unhealthy/weak) rat. which is a very different question, I believe.
should be rephrased as
because I doubt ANYONE here would just *starve* a rat to death. adequate food IS provided, just in some cases the rat is unable to get to it. I believe food is always provided, the way the question is phrased at the moment makes it sound like 'when is it ok to neglect your pet', which is ...never. the way the question is phrased just makes it seem very biased in my opinion.
food was never the issue, it's an issue of how far someone should go to ensure the food gets inside the (unhealthy/weak) rat. which is a very different question, I believe.
Godmother
Well-Known Member
I think that attributing motives to each other is very unwise; it is almost always wrong (even if it might seem clearcut), and it causes unnecessary hard feelings. Trust me, this is something I know a lot about.
If you want to know SQ's motives, just ask. She did state her purpose in the first post of this thread.
Consider the possibility that this thread was linked to Camilla because the issue stimulated thought about a painful and tricky issue, and not for the purpose of giving anyone a hard time. Consider that most of us are doing the best that we can, and that we can all be touchy or awkward with words sometimes.
Some fortunate people never have to face these situations, where decisions have to be made about allocating scarce resources. People who work in shelters or who foster moms & litters have to face them more often, and it must be heart-rending. I don't think I could work at a shelter for that reason. I wish I could just avoid thinking about what I'd do if faced with those hard choices.
But this discussion has taught me a lot, and someday this new knowledge may be very useful to me. For example, I was not aware that the mama rat does not always have special knowledge of the babies' health (I'd always been taught that the mother animal has some sixth sense about what to do). I was not aware that baby rats needed colostrum or that you could buy it. I didn't know that it was common for mother rats to divide large litters into two groups for feeding.
I was certainly aware that interventions such as finding a surrogate mother or doing hand-feeding are difficult and often not possible. This discussion made me realize that the issues are even more complex than I had realized. I didn't come away from it thinking that there are absolute right or wrong answers, but I do feel more prepared for any decisions I might face in future. Most of my tough decisions have been at the other end of the rat's lifespan, and I would be interested to discuss those kinds of decisions in a thread like this..
So I am glad of this thread for the new information gained. It was my understanding that the poll was to provide anonymity for people who wanted to answer without posting, not to insult people. I didn't answer it because I would not have known how (insufficent knowledge and experience), and because I was more interested in the discussion.
I wish that we, as a group, did not spend so much energy protecting ourselves from being judged or insulted. Clear insults can be dealt with as they arise. So if anyone judges me harshly for making this post, or if anyone believes they know my motives for posting, so be it.
If you want to know SQ's motives, just ask. She did state her purpose in the first post of this thread.
Consider the possibility that this thread was linked to Camilla because the issue stimulated thought about a painful and tricky issue, and not for the purpose of giving anyone a hard time. Consider that most of us are doing the best that we can, and that we can all be touchy or awkward with words sometimes.
Some fortunate people never have to face these situations, where decisions have to be made about allocating scarce resources. People who work in shelters or who foster moms & litters have to face them more often, and it must be heart-rending. I don't think I could work at a shelter for that reason. I wish I could just avoid thinking about what I'd do if faced with those hard choices.
But this discussion has taught me a lot, and someday this new knowledge may be very useful to me. For example, I was not aware that the mama rat does not always have special knowledge of the babies' health (I'd always been taught that the mother animal has some sixth sense about what to do). I was not aware that baby rats needed colostrum or that you could buy it. I didn't know that it was common for mother rats to divide large litters into two groups for feeding.
I was certainly aware that interventions such as finding a surrogate mother or doing hand-feeding are difficult and often not possible. This discussion made me realize that the issues are even more complex than I had realized. I didn't come away from it thinking that there are absolute right or wrong answers, but I do feel more prepared for any decisions I might face in future. Most of my tough decisions have been at the other end of the rat's lifespan, and I would be interested to discuss those kinds of decisions in a thread like this..
So I am glad of this thread for the new information gained. It was my understanding that the poll was to provide anonymity for people who wanted to answer without posting, not to insult people. I didn't answer it because I would not have known how (insufficent knowledge and experience), and because I was more interested in the discussion.
I wish that we, as a group, did not spend so much energy protecting ourselves from being judged or insulted. Clear insults can be dealt with as they arise. So if anyone judges me harshly for making this post, or if anyone believes they know my motives for posting, so be it.
ashana
Well-Known Member
I have had my say on this matter and again will say that although we may not agree with other peoples choices it is their choices to make. There are so many scenarios that it is hard to give one straight answer for all options so i ask that everyone keep an open mind about this subject matter.
I would like to thank SQ for making the poll.
Although it does ask a question that could be taken in 100 different ways i feel that by opening this discussion we are able to better understand each others feeling and experiences that would otherwise not be explained.
In the most part people have been kind enough to reply honestly and without judgement on others for their replies. I think it is a great subject as all of us in one way or another have had to face these decisions whether it be a newborn baby, a young adult or aged rat.
Maybe the question should have been "When is enough really enough?" or "Where do you draw the line at assisting?" or any other numbers of ways. The reality is we all differ in opinions and what we will and will not do to assist our fur babies. What doesn't differ is we all love our fur babies and only wish the best for them, that is one subject we are all joint on.
I would like to thank SQ for making the poll.
Although it does ask a question that could be taken in 100 different ways i feel that by opening this discussion we are able to better understand each others feeling and experiences that would otherwise not be explained.
In the most part people have been kind enough to reply honestly and without judgement on others for their replies. I think it is a great subject as all of us in one way or another have had to face these decisions whether it be a newborn baby, a young adult or aged rat.
Maybe the question should have been "When is enough really enough?" or "Where do you draw the line at assisting?" or any other numbers of ways. The reality is we all differ in opinions and what we will and will not do to assist our fur babies. What doesn't differ is we all love our fur babies and only wish the best for them, that is one subject we are all joint on.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I don't think the word is ulterior motives for this poll. But I do know that SQ was struggling really hard to understand why some people including me would not intervene in such a case as Camilla's. And seeing the poll results, she's definitely not the only one.
SQ and I kept on talking through private messages about exactly this thing. She was trying hard to understand how I validate my beliefs. We've had some deep discussions, shared ideas and what our vets have recommended as well.
It was a nice discussions but in the end, although we respect each other greatly, it's just one of those things where we don't agree.
SQ and I kept on talking through private messages about exactly this thing. She was trying hard to understand how I validate my beliefs. We've had some deep discussions, shared ideas and what our vets have recommended as well.
It was a nice discussions but in the end, although we respect each other greatly, it's just one of those things where we don't agree.
Bamboo
Well-Known Member
I'm also glad that this thread was started. SQ may have been prompted to bring up this topic by recent events, but ultimately this issue has always and will always be around. I think it's good that it has been brought to the surface and people are being asked point blank what they would do. I seriously doubt that the whole point of this thread is to underhandedly 'bash' certain members for certain occurances.
In the end, there are no right answers and these are all just opinions being flung back and forth...
In the end, there are no right answers and these are all just opinions being flung back and forth...
Devon
Active Member
I am new here and have bitten my toung on a few occassions but after seeing this post I thought I would share "my opinion"
SQ, I'd like to ask you a question, if you were a multi millionare and one of your rats needed life saving surgery that cost you $100,000 dollars would you do it? Would it be cruel not to?
If you were a middle class person with a home in the same situation would you take out a second morgage to do the surgery? Would it be cruel not to?
If you were a working single mom making minimum wage would you opt to put the rat down? Would you be cruel doing so?
Another question. Your not working by either your choice or not, and your in the situation Lindsay was in with a new born pup that needed constant attention being hand feed every 2 hours. Would you be cruel not to hand raise the pup?
Same situation and you work full time and need your 8 hours of sleep at night to function at work, and you decide to let the pups mom decide to do what's best. Are you cruel?
As I've said. I'm new here, and I don't know you. But I've been reading a lot since joining and on a few occasions such as this I'm shocked by what I read. I hope this doesn't take the topic off subject but there have been a few other cruely issues you have brought up, and I would like to know how you think I should live my life cruelty free.
Of course you meant free range chicken pieces and egg because I don't imagine your talking about this right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYGRTuB_ ... re=related
Or is it the fact the freeze thawed rats are brought up with pork products?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBKeYXg ... re=related
I mean that's definitely not right either. Is there Beef in Rat food? I was at the Keg not long ago what an amazing steak I had, I wonder if it came from here? Now I will warn you I have thick skin but even this next one almost makes me want to go vegan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjSlOOYIkCE
So what makes cruelty free food? We could all go vegan right? Imagine the boost to Monsanto stock from the increased soy production! Want an evil subject to talk about? I'd say this would come in the top 10 most evil things
The World According to Monsanto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErvV5YE ... B&index=21
I used to own a a Red Bellie Piranha. He was feed feeder gold fish when he got bigger, now can't talk about live feeding on this website so I'll let you make your own assumption on whether or not they where pre-killed or not, but I'd say his meals where less cruel then anything I've eaten in the last month. I do look forward to hearing this cruelty free diet of yours though. I once shot a partridge hunting with my Dad, it was raised wild on wild food. I'd say either that bird or the moose burger I had the last time I was in Newfoundland were the only times I ever ate anything cruelty free in my opinion, but I doubt everyone on here will agree with me.
Moving on to another cruelty subject, when do you feel its appropriate to have an animal PTS any ways. When I read this post I get the idea that you believe every last effort should be made to save every last rat. Now I've been debating on whether or not to post this openly and I feel I should. Do you remember this PM you sent me?
100% agree with above post, you have worded your question well to make anyone who picks any answer but yours sound cruel.
SQ, I'd like to ask you a question, if you were a multi millionare and one of your rats needed life saving surgery that cost you $100,000 dollars would you do it? Would it be cruel not to?
If you were a middle class person with a home in the same situation would you take out a second morgage to do the surgery? Would it be cruel not to?
If you were a working single mom making minimum wage would you opt to put the rat down? Would you be cruel doing so?
Another question. Your not working by either your choice or not, and your in the situation Lindsay was in with a new born pup that needed constant attention being hand feed every 2 hours. Would you be cruel not to hand raise the pup?
Same situation and you work full time and need your 8 hours of sleep at night to function at work, and you decide to let the pups mom decide to do what's best. Are you cruel?
As I've said. I'm new here, and I don't know you. But I've been reading a lot since joining and on a few occasions such as this I'm shocked by what I read. I hope this doesn't take the topic off subject but there have been a few other cruely issues you have brought up, and I would like to know how you think I should live my life cruelty free.
SQ from [url="http://www.jorats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=1535" said:
Of course you meant free range chicken pieces and egg because I don't imagine your talking about this right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYGRTuB_ ... re=related
Or is it the fact the freeze thawed rats are brought up with pork products?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBKeYXg ... re=related
I mean that's definitely not right either. Is there Beef in Rat food? I was at the Keg not long ago what an amazing steak I had, I wonder if it came from here? Now I will warn you I have thick skin but even this next one almost makes me want to go vegan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjSlOOYIkCE
So what makes cruelty free food? We could all go vegan right? Imagine the boost to Monsanto stock from the increased soy production! Want an evil subject to talk about? I'd say this would come in the top 10 most evil things
The World According to Monsanto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErvV5YE ... B&index=21
I used to own a a Red Bellie Piranha. He was feed feeder gold fish when he got bigger, now can't talk about live feeding on this website so I'll let you make your own assumption on whether or not they where pre-killed or not, but I'd say his meals where less cruel then anything I've eaten in the last month. I do look forward to hearing this cruelty free diet of yours though. I once shot a partridge hunting with my Dad, it was raised wild on wild food. I'd say either that bird or the moose burger I had the last time I was in Newfoundland were the only times I ever ate anything cruelty free in my opinion, but I doubt everyone on here will agree with me.
Moving on to another cruelty subject, when do you feel its appropriate to have an animal PTS any ways. When I read this post I get the idea that you believe every last effort should be made to save every last rat. Now I've been debating on whether or not to post this openly and I feel I should. Do you remember this PM you sent me?
100% agree with above post, you have worded your question well to make anyone who picks any answer but yours sound cruel.
I believe sketchi said it all. Her post is right on. With that being said this thread should be left to rest as it it becoming like "religion or politics" where there really is NO right or wrong answer. We must all do what is right for ourselves at that specific moment keeping in mind each case will be different.
Bamboo
Well-Known Member
:? I think you're taking this a little too personally, Devon. This thread is not about SQ or anything s/he has said in the past, it's about discussing our personal opinions on the subject of when death is the appropriate option for our animals. I don't agree with everything some people have to say on certain subjects, and I know that not everyone agrees with me about everything, but I really don't see the need to turn this into a "he said, she said" argument.
I really hope this thread can stay on track and civil...
I really hope this thread can stay on track and civil...
Devon said:
I just wanted to say that I think this gives a great example of perspective, and how every situation, no matter how similar they seem, can be very different. It's not so black and white.
And we can answer however we want, but until we're IN the situation, we might not be sure how we would truly react.
Devon
Active Member
Bamboo said:
I'm just stating my opinion, no matter what choices people make here there trying to picking the lesser of 2 (or more) evils. My opinion again, this is an inappropriate time to post such a poll. My opinion again the post just sound like SQ is accusing someone else of neglecting there animals.
Bamboo
Well-Known Member
I have nothing against you stating your opinion. Everything that I said was directed at the way you stated your opinion. It comes across in a very confrontational way and I just hate when debates turn into nothing but flaming. *not saying that's what's happening here, but I can just see this going downhill very quickly*
mamie
Well-Known Member
i agree with you Jorat, I think the parent (rat, dog,cat ) what ever the parent is they know and they will cast it away. I think I would let nature take it's course...
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Wow... When did this thread turn into "throwing stones" at SQ?
We've all been passionate about one thing or another. This happens to be SQ's. She has every right to state her opinion, to guide and educate. It's up to the receiver to listen or not. You either learn and perhaps become enlighten or shut down to ideas and thoughts. I choose to learn even if I don't agree, I still try.
We've all been passionate about one thing or another. This happens to be SQ's. She has every right to state her opinion, to guide and educate. It's up to the receiver to listen or not. You either learn and perhaps become enlighten or shut down to ideas and thoughts. I choose to learn even if I don't agree, I still try.
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