Decisions about care - sorry, screwed up, votes disappeared

[jorats]

I'll just say what my vet always tells me: there is no wrong answer.

You gots yerself a smart vet Jo - but you know that :wink2:

For sure... I love my vet.

 

[sausage4ever]

Oh I totally agree...but I was going somewhere with using you're quote Jo (sorry for just leaving it hanging there).
What I was going to say that saying it's natural isn't the best way to put it, I'm sure some snake people use this argument all the time.

 

[Bamboo]

Oh I totally agree...but I was going somewhere with using you're quote Jo (sorry for just leaving it hanging there).
What I was going to say that saying it's natural isn't the best way to put it, I'm sure some snake people use this argument all the time.

That's for sure and I'll say the same thing here that I say to them. The way I see it, the laws of nature don't apply in captive/domestic situations. Of course runts/unhealthy babies, sickly and/or senior rats wouldn't survive in the wild, but that's the beauty of the captive enviroment: animals that wouldn't have a chance in the wild can live happy lives. The flipside of this is that we also have to pay close attention to our animals so we can ensure that quality of life is not being sacrificed just so the animal will survive. Yes, the animal may not live full lives, in the sense that it may not live up to the life expectancy of it's species, but the animal won't know that. They don't know that they're 'different, so to speak, and they won't know that their lives aren't 'normal', but as long as they're not in pain or distressed it should be given the chance to live.

I realize that I don't really have any right to have an opinion on this as I've only had a limited number of senior rats, especially compared to most of you guys, and I've never had to deal with a mother and litter situation (with rats anyway) but, nonetheless, there it is :mrgreen:

 

[jorats]

I realize that I don't really have any right to have an opinion on this as I've only had a limited number of senior rats, especially compared to most of you guys, and I've never had to deal with a mother and litter situation but, nonetheless, there it is :mrgreen:

You totally have a right to an opinion.. you are an animal lover aren't you? :nod:

What I wonder though... are they in pain? Will they become in pain and suffer? We just don't know that. Chelle's babies, there's no question they are in pain. Same with the babies at Lynds... no question they are suffering and need to be pts.

 

[ashana]

My belief is if babies are born then it is my duty to do everything i can to make sure they get to enjoy a full life with or without issues. Even as a rescue, knowing the hardships with rehoming individuals with birth defects, early myco etc i still continue to give these babies and adults a fighting chance at life. If they can't be rehomed due to illness, defects or age then they spend their lives in my care. Yes it is a rescue environment and they deserve what every other animals deserve. They do not get as much free range as some however they get a lot better than others too.

Stories on hand raising I can give you one that hopefully will give some people hope and know that it is possible even against all odds. I was given 10 babies rats that were 8 days old. They had a good start to life but their mum and one sibling was killed by the family cat. I could have let "nature" take it's course and not taken these babies but instead i chose to step in and tell nature to try it's best. While waiting for the babies to arrive i read and called a few places looking for information on hand raising (i had never raised rats only kittens) and in the process looked for a lactating mum. No breeders here and the couple of place i thought would have lactating mums had no litters currently. So off to the local chemist to get some S26 Infant Soy formula (as per instructed) and some syringes.

The babies arrived, they had not been fed for several hours and were starting to stir for food. Their cage was on a couple of wheat bags heated up and so the first feed mix was done. I started feeding at 12 noon and didn't finish all feeds until 2:50pm. It took nearly 3 hours total to feed, toilet and rub bellies and they needed feeding every 3-4 hours.


I sent hubby around to some vets to try and get me some syringes that were small enough for little mouths and equipment to try and make feeding easier. We found that IV tubing on a syringe worked the best as it is soft and you can make it just long enough to hit the babies suck reflex. Some suckled better than others and some were just pain in the backside to feed with their screaming and complaining that things were not being done properly if you asked them.
The babies were also learning to suck at gauze to get milk but it was never enough to fill their tummies, just enough to keep them quiet while i fed others.

Babies were opening their eyes and learning a little more about the world and how it all worked and i was being sleep deprived ever single day. Raising these babies was more difficult that having a newborn in the house. I was literally getting 45 minutes sleep during the night and then 3 hours to feed, another 45 and then feed. If hubby helped me it only took 1.5 hours but he had to work so the night feeds were mine to do alone and i couldn't catch up on sleep during the day because i also had human children than needed me.
As the feeds progressed the babies started loosing fur, we were not sure why and i was told by many that the chances were that i would only get 3 to weaning IF i was lucky. I was not going to take that lying down, i didn't want to loose any. I was even advised to stop feeding them now and just let them pass, again no way.

I continued and they continued to loose fur but were still slowly gaining weight. Again i was told that there was probably something wrong or that they were double rex babies. Either way i would end up loosing them but i refused to listen.


I fed these babies for 9 days like this until i literally hit a brick wall. My sight, hearing, taste and smell was all messed up and i know that without 6 hours sleep i could cause serious damage to myself. So on night 10 i put them to bed with soaked gauze, some soft foods and a heat source. They were 17 days old by this time which is still too young to be left without regular feeds and any bowl i left for them they would swim in. I was very worried that i would not wake up to 10 little awake faces and that my 6 hours sleep may be the end of some of the babies. When my alarm went off 6 hours later i leaped out of bed and ran to check the babies, there they all were. 10 little faces looking at me screaming murder because i was later with their feeds. I have never seen such perturbed rat babies before anic:

Without boring you all too much more. ALL 10 babies made it to weaning age. Had i not hand raised or at least tried then their lives would have ended at 8 days. Would that have been fair?
There is a sad side to this story as well as a happy. The litter consisted of 6 boys and 4 girls. The girls lived with me and the boys with my parents. One of the girls ended up being PTS at only 9 weeks of age. Nothing to do with my raising but something to do with her. Her teeth were very crooked and needed clipping every 2 weeks at the most, i can't tell you how stressful that was for her and me. Clipping started at 5 weeks of age. I made the decision to NOT put her through that for the rest of her life and asked the vet to please give her peace. Fairy was put to sleep with me nearby.

The good part about this story is that Pixie, Tinks and Bloom who live with me are now 20 months old. All 3 girls have been nothing but healthy. No myco or other ailments as yet.
The 6 boys (also 20 months) have also not had any myco issues. Unfortunately one of the boys has a large mammary tumor now which my mother decided not to let me get remove (the choice was theirs) and he is looking at possibly needing to be put to rest in the coming weeks.

The moral of the story.
Had i let nature take it's course at anytime during this process these guys and gal would never have survived to be what they are today due to no fault of their own. I wouldn't have even known how healthy they would have been.
There is always hope. Not everyone makes it all the time but there is always hope and thats what kept me going.

I do not hold it against anyone who chooses to do what they do. We all believe different things and that is better than ok, thats your way and it works for you :cuddle:

The girls :


I do have recent pics of the boys but need to get my hubby to convert them to JPG

 

[lilangel]

What I wonder though... are they in pain? Will they become in pain and suffer? We just don't know that. Chelle's babies, there's no question they are in pain. Same with the babies at Lynds... no question they are suffering and need to be pts.

And that's mostly why its so hard to decide. For me if i can help i will try but if there is no way to help ie hand feeding and such does not work well then your out of luck. But if there is a way yes i would try.

Decisions like this are always so hard to make and you often wonder if that's the best thing to do and do not know if it is until you do it.

 

[jorats]

I sure hope people don't think that any of us would ever leave however old pups with no mom to die.

 

[lilangel]

I sure hope people don't think that any of us would ever leave however old pups with no mom to die.

I sure hope not ether. We do the best we can, we are only human after all.

 

[ashana]

I believe that none of you would intentionally put any animal in a position to suffer needlessly :thumbup:

I guess my point was that people are talking about letting nature take it's course. If i lived by this then these babies didn't stand a chance because in nature had mum been killed then what would have happened?

This subject is definitely one with multiple sides. I had another runt of a litter that i topped up but just didn't make it. Why? i do not know. I never filled him up because mums milk in important but gave him enough to give him a boost to be able to fight for a nipple. None of us can do it all.. we just have to follow our hearts and do what we believe is the best thing for the fur babies.

 

[Bamboo]

You totally have a right to an opinion.. you are an animal lover aren't you? :nod:

What I wonder though... are they in pain? Will they become in pain and suffer? We just don't know that. Chelle's babies, there's no question they are in pain. Same with the babies at Lynds... no question they are suffering and need to be pts.

Hehe, Thanks! I sure am! :thumbup:

That's why I said "The flipside of this is that we also have to pay close attention to our animals so we can ensure that quality of life is not being sacrificed just so the animal will survive." Of course if the animal is in pain or is distresses it should be pts, but I don't think that babies should be allowed to die just because they can't compete for their food. I also don't agree with *paraphrasing*"the mother will eat the baby(s) if they sense that ther is something wrong with them". Since pet rats have been domesticated for a few hundred years now it is entirely likely that those particular instincts have been diminished and/or skewed. What I'm trying to say is that, other species that have been domesticated have become significantly less...adept with their natural instincts. For example, because of the domestication process the majority of dogs these day are, in one way or another, neurotic. Dogs, because of how long they've been along side humans, have begun to show signs of mental/psychological issues and diseases similar to ours. Since rats are so physiological similar to us, it is not to farfetched to assume that they might be subject to these problems aswell.

Of course, some mothers may very well be sensing illness in the babies that they eat, but I wouldn't trust these instincts. If I suspected that a mother was going to eat one or any of the babies, I would remove the baby(s) and try to find a foster mother. If there was no foster mother, I would handfeed.

I don't think anybody on here would intentionally let babies starve to death. I just think that there is a big diffrence of opinion here. In essence, this is the same "Nature vs nurture" debate that has been going on for centuries. No offense, but I really don't think that it's going to end here. We should keep it as civil as it has been by not taking anything, remembering that other people have just as much right their opinion as we do to ours and ultimately just agree to disagree.

 

[SQ]

Thanks for sharing and for the pictures Phyllis.
You are more experienced at raising babies then anyone else I have heard of.

All the hand raising stories are very interesting.
Glad that Jorats asked people to share their hand raising stories.

As jorats previously mentioned, baby rats need to receive colostrum during their first week of life or they have little chance at survival.
An article in the Rat Guide states that babies may be supplemented with a simulated colostrum formula, that this can be ordered over the internet and that many breeders keep it just in case. I wonder how effective it is.
I would think that this would make a huge difference to the survival of babies that do not have a lactating mom or have a mom that is unable or unwilling to feed them.

 

[sausage4ever]

I agree that no one on here would ever just let any rat pass without trying to do something.
If you can't hand-raise than that's your choice. No one will hold it against you it like CPR, just because you know it doesn't mean you have to speak up when the time comes. I don't know what I would ever do (I dread the thought).

When we took in the Frenchies I went home with two pinks in my pocket one is Rose and the other was more than likely already dead, but the fact was I couldn't live with that I took him/her home hoping that there was something to do...but there was no saving that pink...
I don't know really... had I not rescued the Frenchies I think my opinions on the would be different, but having witnessed over 15 babies leave me from a single rescue. I know in my heart I will always be striving to give every rattie that crosses my path a fighting chance.

 

[Moon]

I think it's funny that I'm very liberal when it comes to things having to do with our pets but for this subject I don't think it's appropiate to just let a litter starve to death.

For me, there's a big difference between mom refusing to feed one, and letting an entire litter waste away. If she's not feeding any of them, that tells me there's *probably* a problem with mom. If a single baby is being purposely ignored, that's a different story.

 

[Dahlas]

I have written and re written a response to this post many times.....and I just can not get it to come out right.

I guess the reason for that is because I find this poll very insulting. To ask a group of animal lover when they would think it would be okay to "allow a rat to die" and at what age is very insulting.
Subjects like these are not black and white. People should not judge others in very difficult situations.
No one took a baby and left it lay on a table while it starved to death, They left the baby with its mom...who had lots of milk. The rest of the babies thrived.....but this one baby was not strong enough. Yes maybe it could have been bottle fed.......by whom? I didn't see people lined up who wanted to take this on.....

I once had a vet tell me that it was more humane to leave a baby with it mom (as long as the mom had milk of course).....where it was warm, and felt safe then to take the baby away to feed it, and stress it out....
If it is meant to live it will live. As long as the mom had milk the baby should be left with its mom.


Why do we think we have the right to interfere in everything? That we know better how to care for a baby then its own mother?

Besides all the good and valid points brought up by Jo and Moon is another very real point. Over population. There are very few homes.....
I work in a shelter....and have been involved in rescue for many years....maybe to many because I am getting very tired of defending the decisions that have to be made by people who should know better but don't.
It is very easy to judge others.....but why not try and be supportive? Offer your help instead of your criticism.

No one "allowed" a baby to die...It just did. It was with it mother and it was not strong enough to make it......

Everytime I read the poll over it pisses me off.....

It is ok to decide to allow a rat to die by deciding not to provide or try to provide adequate food
A. never
B. nursing babies within the first 2 days of life
C. nursing babies over 2 days old
D. older babies that have been weaned
E. teenaged rats
F. adult rats
G. elderly rats
H. rescue rats if your area has too many rescues in need of good homes
I. acutely ill rats (ie respiratory infections, etc)
J. chronically ill rats (ie CHF, kidney disease, damaged lungs, etc)

It is childish and insulting......and IMO should have not be allowed to be posted. It is one thing to discus choices or even care but another thing to accuse someone in this sneaky way of not providing or trying to provide food. This poll did just not come out of the blue....as we all very well know.
It is SQ's way of asking people if they think Ang and Lindsay allowed their little
runt baby to die because they did not start hand feeding her.....
That baby had just as much chance as the rest of the litter....and unfortunately she did not make it...no one "allowed" her to die....she just did.

I was coming back to edit my post but I decided to leave it as is......I am not upset with anyone....I do believe people have the right to their own opinion....and we have the right to discuss them. This is my opinion.......it is how I feel. But others are allowed and encouraged to have their own feeling and to express them.
I know we all love rats and are all trying in our own way to do what we think is best. That is the most important thing.....

 

[sprite71]

I said Never.. I can not let anyone or thing pass away starving and knowingly allow it. I do know it is even harder on us of we try and the bub dies as now we are attached. But I myself would rather try and lose then never try. Many made comment that if it was in the wild and mom died, or pushed it away etc.. well its not in the wild... They are in homes that love them dearly.. We dont take them in to say Look I have a rat, we take them in as we love them and nurture them daily so why let them die..

Just my personal opinion.. Luckly enough I have never gone through this issue and would never want to... If for some reason the bub or even older ones are ill then put them to sleep.. Ask us for help covering the cost if needed... Its less painful for sure... If we are all for humane traps, and proper homes for the ratties than starving should not even be a thought for the ill ones....

 

[LA]

Well said Velma!

 

[SQ]

It is SQ's way of asking people if they think Ang and Lindsay allowed their little
runt baby to die because they did not start hand feeding her.....

This is completely untrue. I gave my reasons for this poll at the beginning of the thread.
I do not appreciate being called a liar and I expect you retract your unfounded allegations.

 

[Dahlas]

I will change it in one way.....IN MY OPINION this poll was created as a way of asking people if they think Ang and Lindsay allowed their little runt baby to die because they did not start hand feeding her.....

 

[Moon]

I thought the ulterior motives behind this thread were pretty clear too.

 

[lilspaz68]