Decisions about care - sorry, screwed up, votes disappeared

[SQ]

I was wondering what people really think ....
Until recently I hadn't realised that people have various thoughts on this question.
I was surprised to discover that there is a difference of opinion and so I am very curious as to what people really think.
I thought that setting up a poll would allow people to express their honest opinion anonymously as this is an important issue.

Personally, once rats are under my care, I try my best to give them every chance.
For example:
if they are babies in a litter larger then the number of nipples and not getting fed because of the competation, I would divide the group into two in order to make sure they would have access to their mom, if the mom hasn't decided to do this herself
if the mom isn't feeding babies I would try to get her to start feeding, try to find a foster mom or try to hand feed
if they are elderly rats or ill, I feed soft food that is more manageable then hard blocks given their physical limitations.
I have learned about doing these things from others more knowledgeable then myself.

so what do you think?

Edit: I guess the key word is decide

Note: You can vote for more then one option, but only vote for a particular option once

 

[jorats]

I personally believe that babies that are nursing if they are not strong enough to survive should be allowed to pass.
Weak animals do not go on to be strong and healthy. They may possibly suffer all their lives.

For example... two moms were taken in to a rescue, both moms tried desperately to not feed her babies. Their caregiver having big hearts tried their hardest to make it happen. The babies survived...for what? To suffer greatly from MC or failure to thrive. These tiny babies must now be pts by a vet. These babies could have passed in their "fetus" state and that I believe is less tragic than having them pass now in the toddler stage.

Another example: Jani had 18 babies. The human didn't intervene because she didn't know any better. 8 died... but it allowed the other 10 to go on and become stronger rats for it.

Rats are sacrificed everyday... Mom knows what to do and if they sense their babies are not meant for this world. Who are we to play god and force them to live. They are weak and sick. What kind of life are you giving them without their precious colostrum, without mom's milk. Human baby formula or kitten milk is so lacking for baby rats. You have no idea what they need at this age, what complications might be growing inside them.

Rat babies are born fetuses. They continue their development on the outside... if the sick ones would continue their development inside the womb, you wouldn't see the mom reapsorbing them or see them become stillborns.

It is not starvation. It is the circle of life.

 

[Dahlas]

Well said Jo......

 

[Moon]

Sometimes you can't see a problem developing, when mothers (rats, dogs, cats, all sorts) know and refuse to feed accordingly. If we're not talking about an entire litter being ignored, chances are very good that it's happening for a reason. We as caregivers can not always intervene, knowing that we could actually be causing more suffering to the baby by forcing them to live when they may actually be suffering from a very painful or developmentally debilitating issue. From the standpoint of our rats, it makes more sense to push away unhealthy bubs early, instead of letting them die later from their afflictions and having more to clean up to keep away predators.

I can't answer your question because to me, as long as there is a lactating mother available, I am trying to provide adequate food.

 

[jorats]

I've chosen babies over 2 days old simply because I've seen moms eat their babies at even a week old.
Which brings another question to mind... if you see mom is about to eat a baby do you try to remove the baby or stop mom from doing this?

This poll is very hard and hangs on a lot on personal beliefs and religion.

I think of the animals in the wild, what happens there, I think of the experience we've gone through with sick rats of the babies that did go on to live but only to suffer greatly and die anyways. I think of what I am capable of, I think of my own children.

There is so many ifs and buts about the question in the poll... it's hard to say for any one case what one should do.

 

[jorats]

I can't answer your question because to me, as long as there is a lactating mother available, I am trying to provide adequate food.

I haven't thought of it that way but you are right.

 

[SunshineRats]

I would never withhold food, nor would I let an elderly rat die of starvation through not being mobile enough to eat.

However, if there is a sickly bub in a litter, I do not interfere for exactly the reasons that Jo has stated.

 

[SQ]

It is always alarming when an individual pup is singled out and abandoned. Unless there is something obviously wrong, the confusing part is trying to determine why. All too often we have seen offspring who were incredibly runted or maimed that the mother still fed and cared for. In the fancy we have seen babies with genetic diseases that the mother never abandoned.
It does not seem that having “something wrong” with the pup is enough to lead to abandonment. It may be that the mother senses the pup’s eminent death, is culling her own litter to make it manageable, or has some unknown aversion to the pup.

Sometime a foster mother will take an abandoned pup in or an owner can hand raise it.

from: http://ratguide.com/breeding/postpartum ... aviors.php

So mothers will often care for babies having serious health issues.

And when a mother decides not to care for a baby, it does not necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the baby.

Edit: The point I intended is that maternal behaviour is not a reliable indicator as to whether babies are healthy or seriously ill.

 

[lilangel]

I would try and help by hand feeding it, as SQ said from the rat guide there is also pups that do thrive and later on do have something that comes up. I would not be able to decide a fate by me saying i will let it die because of it being a runt and saying it MAY have something wrong later. But if something like the mother eating the baby well that also depends if i can try saving it yes i may try to stop it and raise it myself, but if it has already been done well no i can not.

Take Girly and Monkey, Girly was looking a little smaller then monkey(and not thriving as much as he was), yes he was the boy but at the time they were a week old. She is still here with us as where Monkey passed away last year

This is all just me what i would do i am not judging anyone if they do not think the way i think. It is each to their own.

 

[Kayla]

In my opinion, a lactating mother / surrogate mother is food, regardless of if she's feeding them properly or not, but I would still hand feed babies in my care if they needed it. I wouldn't withhold food to any rat as a way to let it pass. If they can't eat/ function to live happily they should be humanely pts. I also wouldn't hold it against someone who decided not to hand feed babies as I understand the over population issue all too well. How long would babies suffer for if they starve to death though? (-not judging-just curious)

It's always the responsible people who have to make the tough decisions to clean up after the ignorant and irresponsible. :rant:

 

[Cityratt]

It is always alarming when an individual pup is singled out and abandoned. Unless there is something obviously wrong, the confusing part is trying to determine why. All too often we have seen offspring who were incredibly runted or maimed that the mother still fed and cared for. In the fancy we have seen babies with genetic diseases that the mother never abandoned.
It does not seem that having “something wrong” with the pup is enough to lead to abandonment. It may be that the mother senses the pup’s eminent death, is culling her own litter to make it manageable, or has some unknown aversion to the pup.

Sometime a foster mother will take an abandoned pup in or an owner can hand raise it.

from: http://ratguide.com/breeding/postpartum ... aviors.php

it also goes on to say that she may be doing that exact thing - or that she feels overwhelmed and is attempting to manage this herself - Im not saying that for the latter you could not step in and attempt to help out there, but unfortunately especially in rescue situations, there may not be enough trust there for the mom to know she is in a safe place, with a constant food supply and could maintain the litter size she has birthed.

 

[jorats]

It really is difficult to choose until you are in that exact situation.
Hand feeding the baby may not be ideal.

I'd like to hear from those here who hand fed their babies... how long did those babies live for?

 

[lilangel]

I hand fed Girly & Monkey(from week old or so) it did work then but i also herd and know and does not always work but was worth the trying.

Monkey passed away and Girly is still here Shes 16 months old now.

But under a week old i have not. Girly & Monkey were the only two.

And the hard decision is will it work out though as i know it does not always work but that is the decision you make if you try or not.

Girly & Monkey at time of getting them(note those pictures i did not take they were taken by the people who gave them away)

 

[xxchelle]

I think I can step in here...

Handfeeding... I took in four orphaned rat pups in the fall, tried them with a nursing rescue mom, she ignored them, so I hand fed. They all died. There WAS something wrong with them - they lived here for 6 days, with hand feeding every two hours, and they didn't gain a single GRAM. Not one. The mom - all the moms that rejected them - clearly knew something was up. There was nothing we could have done, we dragged their lives out for no reason, after ignoring cues from the nursing rat moms who ignored them.

I recently had a complicated litter, the Miracle Babies. Some background - the mom came to the rescue with 5 babies (the Greek Babies) that were about 2 weeks old, and she was already pregnant with her next litter, too far along to e-spay. With the Miracle Babies, there were drastic complications during birth, which ended in an emergency trip to the vet, etc. There were 11 live pups at the end of the day. The mom rejected them, so I stepped in to start hand-feeding them. After a few days, only 4 were left alive.

As I was battling exhaustion (one person can only do so much), the Greek babies ALL died. They showed signs of genetic issues, and they all died within days of each other. There was nothing I could have done.

The Miracle babies have the same mother and father as the Greeks, and the mother rejected them at birth, I can only assume they likely have the same genetic condition which will kill them horribly at around 6-7 weeks. They're 4.5 weeks old now.

So, was it better for me to hand-raise them, only to have them potentially, likely die in a couple weeks? Or should I have taken a cue from the mother who has instincts far greater than mine, and let them pass peacefully with her? I don't know. It's a hard, hard decision and one that can really only be made by the caregiver in the moment.

 

[lilangel]

It's a hard, hard decision and one that can really only be made by the caregiver in the moment.

Very well said. I also think its at that moment and up to the person caring for them also.

As said in first post for me that's is what i would do and such in no way am i trying to in-force it on to others


Like with Girly & Monkey they were giving away as snake food at that age not that the mother left them so its a little different but still were hand raised. (And we think Girly was the runt as she was smaller then Monkey and was not thriving as he did at the time but soon worked out for the best)

 

[Godmother]

Even though this is a painful topic, I am glad it is being discussed. I had not ever thought about what I would do in such a situation, and would therefore (without this discussion) have had to make the decision at a time of stress. When I am anxious and/or overwhelmed my decisions are not always the ones I'd make with some time to reflect.

Now I've had a chance to hear from people who have lived through it and from people with a lot of expertise. That means that, if this ever happened with a new mother under my care, I would be prepared enough to do what seems right to me.

I hope that people can set aside their fears of being judged. It's a complex situation with a host of factors to consider. Now we can all feel more prepared.

 

[sausage4ever]

It is not starvation. It is the circle of life.

I think it's funny that I'm very liberal when it comes to things having to do with our pets but for this subject I don't think it's appropiate to just let a litter starve to death. I'm sorry but by not providing proper feed or methods of feeding, that's the end result. I don't believe in letting the weaker ones starve either. I think as long as they are born and in this world they deserve to be fed, either by Mom or by us. I could never give up on a baby as long as I knew there was a chance.

I hand-fed one baby (only for two days until a surrogate was found) that was probably on her way out, she pulled through and has a lovely Mom now. She would have being handfed by me had another Mom not bothered to take her and I'm confident she would have done fine.
I had Nanuk who got maloclussion, he had to get his teeth clipped and his food water down so he could eat. He was on Baytril/Doxy and slowly dying anyways, but I did everything to make sure he was well fed, but because his food was watered down his teeth kept growing, and because his teeth were so wonky he needed his food mushy...

I can't see anyone allowing their animals to starve. For me proper nutrition and feed is the single biggest effect we have on our animals. It's the only thing we have controll over. I always think long and hard when making a nutrtitional decision. I almost can't believe this is a debate... I never get emotional over these things but come on I watched one of my babies essentially starve to death (Nanuk) and it killed me. I wa waiting to see if he'd get better but he never did and there wasn't time to have him pts. He was my only boy to die at home. I miss him everyday.

I couldn't let any other rat go thru that. Starvation is not fun, we would never consider drowining a rat as an okay way to go what makes starving any different.

Edit: I know Dahlas said do not fear being judged, and she's right (even given the above). I'm open to other people opinions on the subject and I am a reasonable person.

 

[Phyllis]

I have raised wild & tame babies of all types for many many years, I never stop feeding or caring for any animal til God calls it home. I have had babie ratties that are born the runt, always supplement with ensure & help them to a dinner plate, this happened not too long ago, my girl had 12 babies one was way the runt, I always kept her on top of the pack & got a nipple, I also supplemented with ensure, tried Mommy never tried, to hurt Runter, she was so tiny the outside toe on each foot wasn't totally developed, like she was a preemie, I loved her & she thrived, stayed with her family, as for the smaller living short sick lives, she out lived all her siblings, ofcourse you all know me & my feelings, here is a cute real story, I had a house mouse brought in in a box of veggies, I caught her in a have a hart, released her in a safe place, then I had this nagging feeling in the back of my friend, I caught her in my closet, what if she had babies, I searched & found 6 little pinkies, hand raised them all, they were darling pets. here are some photos of My Runter girl I sure loved her she had a heart on her back
Baby Runter getting feed

Runter at the feeding bowel on the left see her heart, she was not to runt then!

 

[jorats]

Starvation is such an ugly word and I don't think we all know the true process of death by starvation.
I've read so many articles on it, some saying that it's traumatic while other doctors state it's painless. (remember the Schiavo case, there were many doctors weighing on the subject at the time.)

I've had a few rats, elderly and sick who would refuse to eat. I would then force feed them, sticking a syringe down their throat, they would fight me on it and become very stressed. Was I doing that for them or for me?
Thank god for vets and being able to put to sleep before it gets that bad again.

Babies die from lack of nutrition from mom or they are supplemented with unsuitable milk. Without that colostrum, those babies are pretty much on borrowed time anyway. Sure there are some that will make it and thrive but that is not the norm.

Humans in hospitals are subjected to starvation when their kin signs off on it as a form of euthanasia.

It's a controversial subject with so many scenarios it's hard to say exactly what is right and what is wrong.

I'll just say what my vet always tells me: there is no wrong answer.

 

[Cityratt]

I'll just say what my vet always tells me: there is no wrong answer.

You gots yerself a smart vet Jo - but you know that :wink2: