Advice needed: 2 tumors. Erm......

[crumbilina]

Thanks I am so happy that it is looking to be more of an abscess. I will be soaking her in warm water tonight as well.

Luckily I have a wound wash solution for her (used when she was recovering from her last lump removal) so I think that I can use that if it opens up.

Wow though, if that is an abscess, that is a HUGE abscess. Poor girl

I will do what everyone has suggested so far. Right now, as long as the warm water in sink thing is working I will stick to that. It seems easiest since she ust sits in it. When she starts to protest that I will get her into the hot water bottle and wash cloth.

OH and I will resist the temptation to squeeze. I will try and prevent her from grooming.

One other thing I was thing was her bedding. Right now she is on fleece and it is hard to keep it clean. Should I just take out her fleece liner and leave her on plastic? except of course for the scraps of cotton she has in her house and sputnik? What do you think? I just feel I would be able to keep her cage cleaner for her if this was the case... She is alone in the cage (hehe my old lady) so it wont be hurting any other ratties...

 

[larch]

Abscesses can get freaking huge. Google taught me this... With horrifying pictures D:

I hope I'm right, but I am an amateur. I know a bit about abscesses and a bit about rats, so I'm just combining that knowledge. It's the only thing you can do for now anyway, is to keep soaking her, and just hope it's an abscess. It sounds to me like it is, but as I said, I'm an amateur.

As for bedding, I'd say the cleaner the better. Bacteria is what caused the abscess, and if there's an open wound involved, it's pretty important to keep it clean. If not, you'll have to wash her and her wound pretty frequently, which could stress her out. Whatever you think is best and easiest for the both of you, go ahead and do. I'm always improving my rat's habitat as much as I can, it's never a waste of time or money. Instead of simply plastic, make sure there is some kind of bedding, whether it be pine or aspen, it's pretty easy to scoop up with a bag. A ratty igloo or hammock is good for sleeping, though I think the igloo is more clean since you can just clean the bedding under it and wipe it off. But I'm sure she'll be fine as long as you keep up with her saline/wound washes.

 

[Fidget]

When I touch it even lightly she winces and trys to run away

I've dealt with plenty of non-cancerous mammary tumors and none ever were painful to the touch. Is it different with cancerous tumors? Abscesses can hurt to touch. I sure hope it's absesses!
Far as compresses, I've heard of using warm teabags (especially green tea) for compresses?

 

[larch]

I think earl gray and chamomile tea have also some healing properties. Sadly they cool down fast so you'd have to keep dipping them.

I also rethought my suggestion on bedding, I wonder if towels or old socks are better? that way no shavings would get inside the wound. you'd just have to change the soiled fabrics in there a lot

 

[lilspaz68]

I would guess the nodular one is the one that she has no reaction to? That one sounds more like a tumour. The other one *may* be an abscess but keep your expectations low so you aren't disappointed when its not. Both showing up like that both looking like they do is more indicative of tumours than abscesses. Sorry Jenny.

IF an abscess bursts I usually keep them on fleece changed daily. I flush twice a day until its healed and with the amazing powers of rats that's usually not too long

 

[crumbilina]

Don't worry, I'm not getting my hopes up too high but I do have hope, becuase if I didnt what would there be?

I just want to do everything that I can for her. I know very well this could be more tumors, especially since she had one in the past, however abscesses have a treatment, tumors in her case dont really. If I treat like an abscess, just doing the therapeutic stuff, then at least I'm doing something instead of nothing. She LOVES the extra attention... and seems to be loving the warm baths, so I think I will continue. Lol I will have to take a picture of her happy little face when she is in the sink... cutest ever

She is still STILL her spunky old lady self. I thought she would get along iwth the babies, thinking maybe she has mellowed in her "old age" heh... nope! She is eating and drinking normally, pooping normally - not sure about peeing, I havent seen that and there is no concrete evidence, but I'm sure thats ok too since there are some yellow stains on her little white blanket/piece of flannelette.

We will see what the vet says. Who knows what will happen. Even if they are tumors, she has some time And she will be spoiled rotten in that time.

 

[crumbilina]

Oh and yes, the nodular very firmly rooted and hard mass is the one that shrank a bit in the first few days of being on the anitbiotic and then stopped shrinking.

I will keep her on her fleece then

 

[crumbilina]

I have one last question... or rather there may be a few questions:
When I go to the vet on Friday, what should I ask him for if anything? He seems pretty inexperienced, so the knowledge I bring in will be VERY valuable.
There are a couple of If's so:
If it is a abscess I should ask for...?
If it is a tumor I should ask for...?

Thanks for everyones help

 

[lilspaz68]

For an abscess you can ask for clavamox, sooo good for penetrating those nasty things. And even if it doesn't kill the bacteria, it often "liquifies" it making it easy to clean/flush out. I use baytril as well.

As for tumours, you could try asking for a steroid (and an ab to help with the immune system suppression of the steroid). This can often shrink the tissues for awhile and then you stop feeding sugars, fats, etc so you aren't feeding the dang things.

 

[crumbilina]

Ok I will most likely ask for Pred, since I am very familier with it. Do you think that would be good?

I already stopped feeding sugars... She ONLY gets Harlan and kale/peas... I cut out corn (her favourite) because i heard that it wasvery high in sugar.

Thanks for the answers

 

[M0onkist]

Corn is very high in sugar, unfortunately - one of the many reasons why it's used so much for sweeteners (anything with ingredients like glucose/fructose, high fructose corn syrup, corn syrup obviously, stuff like that). I have to avoid all corn stuff like the plague, not because of the sugar but because I'm allergic to corn - so I've gotten all too good at reading labels.

In an odd aside, companies in the States are lobbying to be able to simply call all those complicated scientific names 'corn sugar' - presumably because people won't think it's quite so toxic to their bodies if it sounds 'natural'. Nothing natural about derived corn sugars...

 

[crumbilina]

The government is allowing too many things when it comes to food labeling. I vaguely remember a lot of controversy over the maximmunite biobest yogurt and how it should not be called that as it is misleading in nutrition class. Its ridiculous what they have allowed on food labels.

I really never knew that corn was that high in sugars until I read it in an article of some sort (could have come from a variety of places recently). I`m glad I did. I would never have thought that I would need to cut corn out of her diet!

 

[M0onkist]

I'm sure it's vexing for her, to not be able to eat a favorite treat!

I wonder if something like astro original balkan-style yogurt would be okay. They have organic too, but I know the ingredients are all two syllables or less, lol - milk, enzyme, honey, stuff like that. Obviously Shelagh might know better on this.

Perhaps in terms of not-sweet treats, chives or Ontario-grown green onions? The Pips practically inhale chives, and last time I gave them some, Mr. Honeycomb grabbed a mouthful and ran off... The only reason I say Ontario-grown for the green onions is because most come from Mexico, and the water isn't always safe to drink when used to water plants.

 

[crumbilina]

Her favourite treat is Cheerios and I have NOT had the heart to eliminate that. How could I give all the other ratties cheerios and not her??? Its her fave to the point where she practically crawls through the bars. Corn was her fave veggie, but I think Kale might be replacing corn there...

Humm, I should try chives... I might still have some frozen down from when I actually was able to grow them. I dunno about green onions though... They would probably go to waste here since I wont eat them and I dont think I could feed enough to use it all up. Maybe if I can get a small pack from ontario i could try.

She gets lots of kale - i dunno what it is about it... I hate the stuff, but she grabs it and takes off, so I wont argue. MInd you... I dont really like veggies, the ratties tend to eat better then I do :giggle:

I love that yogurt! Maybe next time i get it she can have some too. I KNOW it is NOT high in sugar... I add a lot to it lol!

Thanks for the suggestions, ill definitly have to try it out

(And please excuse the spelling mistakes)

 

[crumbilina]

Back from the vet!

Turns out everyone was right! It looks like the one was an abscess that had a mammary tumor form under/by it. The other is for sure a mammary tumor - which I already guessed. So all in all not that great of news.

He said that she probably could go for another surgery to have the 2 removed as they are "not that big". I laughed at him and told him that they are very large and that thats the largest I have ever let any tumor get. He said he has people coming in with tumors that are larger then the rat asking for a removal... I just stared... Why wouldnt you have the removed sooner?!
Sorry off topic there... he said that she could haave them removed but judging from her history with the last removal then 2 more popping up he figured that she would have more in a month or so from the end of the surgery.
*sigh* So now I am faced with a difficult decision, and I dont know what to do... Should I put her through another surgery just to have more pop up later... she IS 2.5 years old... Do I leave it?
I asked him for prednisone or some other steroid to try and reduce inflammation and reduce growth. He was uncomfortable giving it to me becuase of the effects on the liver. I don't want her to be on it long term... but I would like her to be on it until I decide whether or not im going to do the surgery, jsut so that the incisions dont have to be any bigger then they already will be. This is what I told him... He ended up giving me prednisilone (probably some crud spelling going on there) which is easier on the liver appearaltny.. I will have to take a look.

Anyway, thats where I am at. I really dont know what I'm gonna do. Its a tough decision. She seems fine itherwise and to be honest if the tumors were anywhere else on her body I would probably just leave them... but 2 inbetween the back legs? Geeze...

I dunno...

 

[jorats]

It's a tough call for sure. It sucks any which way you look at it.

 

[hopefloats]

I went through this with our luna. It tore me up. I still wish I would of had it removed sooner, she was old and had lung problems so we didnt think she would make it through the surgery.We went through antibiotics after antibiotics to try to get her lungs cleared up and we couldn't in time to have the surgery done right. It seems the only problem with them growing is they start have weight loss from it. Luna went down hill fast. It is hard to decide which way to go, I know that as long as they seem fine, I will have the surgery, but that was probably stemmed from guilt with fighting for Luna for so long.

We had lunas removed in march, and it came back august i think, around hen maybe july. It was really slow at first then it just grew, and kept growing. I hated watching it and the surgery too.

I feel your pain, I lost a lot of sleep on deciding this with luna, but she had other problems so that made it more difficult to decide, plus she was my daughters favorite and first rat, and I knew losing her would break her heart so you know you fight to protect your kids.

 

[M0onkist]

I remember with Princess (she was the only one of girls I've had who had a tendency for tumors), I brought her in for surgery I think a total of 3 times - each time they were small (size of a pea/peanut), but once I brought her in when it was the size of half a pea. This was with the vet-from-hell, mind, but she actually didn't feel comfortable doing surgery on a tumor so small - so I had to wait until it was pea-sized, then she removed it.

::hugs:: I'm so sorry - it's such a hard decision, knowing when to go after it with surgery and when to see if alternate treatments might work better.

 

[SQ]

It is a very difficult decision.

I know that some people have their girls spayed when they have surgery for mammory tumours.
This sometimes will prevent more tumours from developing.
Don't know if this is an option for your girl given her health and age.

 

[adyoo]

I realized that keeping a rat means having to make that tumor vs age or sickness decision.

Woogy and Teeny were really sick with Myco and over a year old. I thought their lungs or hearts would not survive the mass removals. Teeny the sicker one lived another month and Woogy traveled across USA with me till she passed 5 months later. At least they had one thing less on their plate to deal with darn that dreaded Myco!
Then I Bluey had one tumor growing slowly under her arm but quite defined and round. I thought she might go before the mass got to big. Her 2 sisters Boogy and Quickey had died young due to Myco and Bluey had it in a mild form but she was almost 2(All my pet rats never lived more that 1.5 years so I never imagine Bluey will still be with me). Then I found another lump like in your picture but this was fast growing. After days of worrying what to do I said to myself I will give Bluey a chance. I am blessed to have the resources and worry alone will not solve the problem.
Bluey took over 2 weeks to heal and had to wear a body cast. She recovered from surgery and is cancer free like her mum who underwent a mastectomy last year. I just have to fix her sneezing. :horsepoop: