Oliver is freaking out: Update 03/04

[eagle]

It really sounds like seizures to me. Poor baby, he must be bewildered. I have never had a rat with that problem, so I don't know how it is treated in rats. A friend of mine's dog had recurrent seizures and she was treated with phenobarb (which seemed odd to me, because they don't use that drug for people's seizures).

Phenobarb is pretty much standard in dogs with seizures at least in the states.

 

[Chevalrose]

I don't think his episodes are seizures though. I've seen him before he freaks out and he isn't spasming or anything...he just looks scared then panics around the cage. I think he did seize this morning from hitting his head so much though.

The eVet is one of them that does have rat knowledge. She didn't mention epilepsy I don't think because she believed this panicking was behavioral. I guess time will tell.

Here's some pictures of Oliver and Romeo's new cell...I mean cage:

 

[Godmother]

Did your vet say what she meant by "behavioral"?

 

[Chevalrose]

Yeah that she agreed that he was getting irrationally scared at things, especially since it started when we brought him home 4 days ago. He didn't do this at my mother's when he was there for QT the two weeks before. She said it was very possible that since he's been hitting his nose (enough for it to bleed) and obviously his head on things that could be the reason he was like that this morning.

I just don't see it being a seizure causing these episodes because he doesn't remain in a small area or spasm before or during...he runs around at the speed of light wherever his legs will take him...which is everywhere.

 

[jorats]

Definitely a neurosis.

You did a great job on that cage!!! He's all nice and safe now.
When he goes into a running fit, can you grab him and settle him down? He might be too fast to grab though. I was able to grab Moose once but I had to hang on tight to him cause he was ready to run right out of my hands and into the air. It's like they don't even realize where they are and where they are headed.

 

[Chevalrose]

Yes that is exactly what it's like Jo. Yesterday I would put him in my sweatshirt like you recommended and he would usually calm down quicker that way (as well as not hurt himself as easy).

It seems like he didn't do it as many times yesterday, and hopefully he wont do it as often today and keep going in that direction.

I guess I'll probably wait until next weekend to really intro all the boys. If he doesn't get better by then, I think I'll still do it since it might help.

 

[lilratsy43]

Is there any chance he might be blind? Perhaps thats why every noise is sooo scary to him, and it could also be the reason he runs into walls...just a thought

 

[Chevalrose]

You know I thought that myself lilratsy, but he doesn't really act like it otherwise. He doesn't regularly fall off things or run into things when he's acting normally and he also seems like he focuses on things. Perhaps he's partially blind...? I dunno.

 

[lilspaz68]

OK so if we think its behavioral, lets think about the differences between your mom and your home? Do you have cats and she doesn't? Etc.

 

[Chevalrose]

We both have a cat.

They were in her spare room alone at her house...at my house they're in the living room because we only have a 1 bedroom apartment. So there is more going on around them. Also our walls aren't the thickest and we can hear people when they're in the hallway (there's only 4 units in our building...one across from us who has kids, and one below us that is just a single woman).

The thing that I don't get is that he doesn't get scared at things I think he would be...like the vacuum or the cat sitting on Drew's desk (which is next to the cage). He also does it more at night when it's quiet and dark. It's just very random.

 

[Godmother]

"behavioural" can mean one of two things:

1) The behaviour is a conditioned response. For example, if he freaks out at a sound that reminds him of a terrifying situation from his past. Corrie (RIP) never stopped reacting to anything that looked like a stick. She would lunge and bite. She had been rescued from a snake owner who used a stick to push her out of the way and take her babies.

2) the behaviour is an operant response, reinforced by something that happened in the environment just after the behaviour occurred. This seems very unlikely in your rat's situation. An example would be a rat who chews on the bars of the cage, if the behaviour is usually followed by some attention.

Sounds like you guys are thinking conditioned response. It sure is hard to figure out what freaks them out sometimes. One of mine went ballistic the other night (running at speeds I'd not thought possible) up and down in the cage and tunnelling under the fleece back and forth and then cowering behind a litter box. I didn't notice anything unusual, and she has never done this before. As far as I know she has never been faced with anything scarier than a vet visit. It is likely that she heard some noise that I can't hear, yet her cagemates were not bothered.

 

[SQ]

I just don't see it being a seizure causing these episodes because he doesn't remain in a small area or spasm before or during...he runs around at the speed of light wherever his legs will take him...which is everywhere.

I am not arguing that it is seizures (epilepsy) or disagreeing with your vet I am just giving some information.

When rats have seizures they may not spasm and they may run around frantically unaware of their environment. They may bang into things and get hurt. After a seizure they may be exhausted and comfort from their owners may help calm them down as these episodes are very frightening experiences. Epilepsy may have many different causes ( example: sugar level, magnesium defiency, etc) and different types of seizures have responded to different treatments. Seizures may also have a wide variety of triggers.
Good info. on seizures can be found at: http://ratguide.com/health/neurological/seizures.php

 

[Chevalrose]

Yeah I did look at that page originally thinking that it might be seizures. I really don't know. Only time will tell I guess, but I really do think it's him being irrationally afraid of things because of one specific episode where I was bringing him farther away from the cage than he had been before to get the nail clippers and the TV made a weird noise and he started to get scared and squirm out of my hands, then when I put him into the cage (since I didn't want to drop him)...he did the running around thing.

 

[Moon]

Very often seizures do not result in spasms or twitching or anything. Behavioral issues in dogs sometimes end up being diagnosed as petite mal seizures, but they can be difficult to diagnose and not all vets are willing to use seizure meds as a diagnostic tool.

If the episodes happen very shortly after he wakes up, it could very well be a seizure, as REM sleep has been known to trigger seizures.

I'm not saying that it's absolutely for sure the case, but lack of spasm does not mean it's not a seizure. I guess that's what I am getting at.

 

[lilspaz68]

Is it a lot brighter where he is now? Seizures have been triggered by too much light. Try partially covering his cage and see how he does? He also may feel safer too being "covered up".

 

[Chevalrose]

Hmm...well it's happened when he's awake and it's also happened at night when there's no light. He actually seems to do it less during the day (since I've had the past 3 days off I've been able to see him during the day).

 

[lilspaz68]

Can you leave a light on low in the livingroom to see if it slows down the night terrors?

 

[Chevalrose]

So I left the light on last night...and no episodes. He actually hasn't freaked out since yesterday morning when he messed himself up.

So it's either a) the new cage set up or b) the light. He has freaked out at night when the lights were on too before. So I'm going to try a night without the light on and see what happens. Maybe he's done doing it anyways (which would be nice!).

 

[Chevalrose]

So we tried the light off last night and he didn't flip out again. So maybe it's the way I set up the cage, or maybe he realized how stupid he was being. Either way I'll take it! I'll keep the towels up until I clean their cage Saturday and I guess we'll go from there.

 

[lilspaz68]

He's at the freaky baby stage, hopefully he will gain more confidence and grow out of this.