Nibbler

[Roo]

We've been in and out of the vet for the last few months. First she was on Baytril for 3 weeks to see if there was improvement - and there was. But she wasn't completely fixed so we brought her back and got her on Doxy. We're into the second week of her Doxy treatment.

I don't know her weight. She's 19-20 months old.

She improved a lot the first week, though I had to squirt it directly into her mouth the first few days. After that, she would take it in a small amount of yogurt.

She's not gaining weight. I see her eat Harlan and I try to give her Glucerna/ensure every day. Her breathing just seems to be getting worse, and it's harder and harder to give her the medicine. She won't even eat her papaya treats, which always used to be her favorite.

I guess what I'm getting to is... when it comes to pneumonia/chronic URI how do you know when to stop trying?

Nibbler seems too tired to give us any hints. She always wants out of her CN but she just hides under a blanket on the couch for 5-6 hours without moving. I feel like we're just being cruel keeping her alive when she can't play or enjoy anything. The medicine isn't helping.

I don't really know what anybody can say that I haven't read in other threads from my browsing, but I wanted to make a thread for her. I need to rant somewhere. This seems hard for me. We lost her sister to this when she was only 9 months old. I fail so hard. :cry4:

 

[victoria]

Mixing the medicine with yogurt will decrease the effectiveness - both because the calcium bonds with the Doxy molecules and because the bacterial cultures in the yogurt will be killed off before the meds start working on the invading bacteria. Probiotic supplements are a really good practice, but they should be given at least two hours apart of antibiotics so they do not decrease each others' effectiveness.

If Nibbler has pneumonia, you can also get Metacam from the vet to relieve some of the inflammation on the lungs and make her more comfortable. Or, you can go back to the vet to try another drug combination. A lot of people have luck with Zithromax in combination with Doxy, but not all vets will prescribe it for rats. Steaming in a bathroom with a hot shower running or by a kettle is really helpful at easing discomfort as well, but only if the rat doesn't panic.

Good luck to your little girl. I had a boy sick forever (and now on lifetime meds) that I came close to losing many times but he did recover. There is still hope. Take a look at the masking meds thread for ideas on how to mask Doxy without dairy.

ETA: It's late and I just reread your post a little closer. She does look pretty skinny and she is likely dehydrated. Try giving her some Pedialyte or a homemade rehydration mix to hydrate her and try to get her to eat anything. Puréed veggies, esp. homemade ones (cheaper than baby food), are always a huge hit with my guys. If you have an immersion blender you can purée some steamed/boiled carrots, potatoes, or squash and maybe add a couple of drops of olive oil to make them more appetizing. I've added lentils and/or grains (rice, barley, oats, etc.) to mine from time to time to make them heartier. :hugs:

 

[Roo]

Mixing the medicine with yogurt will decrease the effectiveness

That's good to know, thanks. I had always mixed it into the ensure, but she stopped eating that. She only eats the yogurt if it's off my finger - but that stopped too. Which I guess is good since it wasn't helping.

That gives me a bit of hope. I'll look for even more options, and if I can't find anything in the next few days I'll suggest different meds from our vet.

She does look pretty skinny and she is likely dehydrated.

I have been concerned with dehydration as well so thank you for these suggestions too. I gave her some carrot we had in the fridge, but she refused it. Along with the juicy inside of a grape (which she also refused) hoping it would help.

I've been doing the "pinch the back of the neck" every few hours and it always snaps back.

Dragging boyfriend to the grocery store with me. Will see what we can come up with. Really appreciate the advice. I'm frazzled.

:cuddle:

 

[temblabamomo]

I'm not sure there's any clear way to know when it's time to stop trying. Some rats will let you know, others will just keep going and you have to trust yourself to make that decision for them. If you feel she is no longer enjoying any quality of life, is inactive, and won't even eat her favorite thing, then there is a good chance that it is time, or close to it. I know the last thing any of us wants to do is have one of our little ones pts before their time - we want them to live as long as they are comfortable, but we also want to be able to help them to pass before they are in discomfort/suffering. It's a fine line, to be sure. But you know her best, and you've got to trust yourself to take a step back and be objective. You will know when it's time.

I went through this same thing with my sweet old boy Disashi, and I spent every day of his last two weeks feeling terribly guilty and second guessing every decision I made for him. Every night I thought it would be better off to just take him in and have him pts. But he still seemed to want to be around. And then one night, he didn't, and I knew.

Watching them go through this sucks, so soooo much and I'm sorry you have to go through this with your Nibbler. You've done so much for her already. I wish I could help you, but you know her best and will know better than anyone else when it's time to stop trying. Again, I'm sorry you have to go through this with her. :hugs:

 

[Roo]

:cuddle: Trem.

I'm actually sick today (I told Nibbler to stop breathing in my face because I didn't want to get sick, but she didn't listen :giggle: ).
Boyfriend has gone to the store to get me meds and I gave him a small list of things to grab for Nibbler that we will try. I am hoping she begins reacting to the medicine now that it won't be in yogurt like she was the first few days.

I visited Nibs at about 4am this morning because I had been going through my pictures of her of when she was bright-eyed and healthy. I asked her what she thought, and gave her a piece of paper towel. Her eyes popped out, she grabbed the paper towel and yanked it into the CN and ran over to her bed with it and folded it over a few times. I bet it took all her strength for the day - but if that isn't a clear "Let's not give up yet" then I don't know what is!

:bliss:

 

[temblabamomo]

That sounds positive

On the downside, if she has had chronic respiratory problems on and off for most of her life, there is a good chance that she may have some abscesses in the lung tissue and maybe some lung scarring. I do not know of any treatment for those conditions.

Did your vet discuss the possibility of using an inhaler or perhaps some sort of bronchodilator?

 

[Roo]

Well I'm getting mixed messages from her. She likes the baby food. She had about 3 of my finger-tip fulls - eyes popped out and she chattered at me. And now she won't eat anything again. So it's not the flavor - it's just her not eating. :gaah:

He told us to try the doxy first and come back before the month is up if it isn't helping because we might have to try something more drastic. I assume it will be something like that, but if he doesn't mention it I'll be sure to ask him about it.

 

[Roo]

Sitting on the couch, right now.

EDIT: tired

 

[mamarat]

Aww your poor girl.

My girl Cookie had pneumonia and Baytril and Zithro combo worked well for her.

 

[temblabamomo]

How is she doing today?

 

[lilspaz68]

So right now you are just giving her doxycycline alone? Definitely not enough, she needs at least baytril added or switched to a better combo like baytril/zithro (also cured one of my sick girls with pneumonia).

She does look unwell.

 

[jennifervb]

Add her meds to soy yogurt. It is non dairy and won't hinder the effectivity of the antibiotics.

I gave my boys plain yogurt from "Whole Soy&Co". They hated "Silk" soy products but they LOVED the "Whole Soy".

You can get Whole Soy&Co yogurt from Whole Foods Markets. I'm not sure if they are available in other Canadian stores but you can contact them to find out.

http://www.wholesoyco.com/

Poor little Nibbler. She doesn't look like she feels, at all, well. :sad3:

Please give her a kiss from me and tell her to hang in there. I also agree with Lilspaz that she needs to be on Baytril too. :love6:

 

[Roo]

I'll look for the soy yogurt, thanks. It's probably easier to get it to stick to my finger than the baby food is.

She wouldn't eat last night. We'll have to take her back to the vet... I think she'll go back to eating pretty much everything if we can just get her to feel a LITTLE better. I'll right down the medicine combos and see what Dr. Liston thinks.

He told me whatever she has is already spread around the house so I can keep her with Badger and Freya, but to keep an eye on them in case they start showing any symptoms. They're perfectly fine as of right now.

I just visited Nibbler and gave her kisses/scritches from everybody. She says she's feeling a little better today. She seemed much more active. I went to bed early last night since I'm sick, so I'm guessing Boyfriend managed to get some more water and maybe food into her.

The camera woke up Badger and Freya, who eventually came out for love as well.

Freya top, Nibs bottom

When the CN is open, Badger will go along the doorway and pull all the carefresh further into the cage so it doesn't fall out. I try to steal some, but she'll have none of it. :giggle:

 

[Roo]

I hand fed her some baby cereal with meds mixed in it for a while. She ate, but very very slowly. So I plopped it down next to her in the CN (she doesn't eat off of plates) and she munched away at it.
:dance:

 

[mamarat]

That's good that's she's eating. Such a pretty girl.

 

[temblabamomo]

I'm glad she's eating. Dunno why I didn't think to mention that antibiotic combos are always better than one drug alone :emb: Lots of cuddles and love to her.

 

[victoria]

If the soy yogurt is fortified with calcium or prepared with a bacterial culture, it should not be given with Doxy/antibiotics. You really want her to get the full effect of the antibiotics. If she's not improving on Doxy and Batryl yet, you really should think about calling the vet for different antibiotics and getting some Metacam to offer some relief. If she feels a little better her appetite might increase and that will help her get the strength to fight along with the antibiotics.

 

[Roo]

Loren called the vet just now and they had a spot open for 3:30. The energy Nibs had during her breakfast this morning is gone. She tumbled off the back of the couch (forward onto a pile of pillows and a blanket). I think it embarrassed her. She waddled away quickly.

 

[Roo]

I couldn't type fast enough on my iPod, had to log in

We had her on Baytril and it actually helped a lot. She declined once she ran out of the stuff (but she was still energetic and plump, just her breathing was off) and he wanted to try the Doxy (given on the 23rd of last month) so we've been kinda "experimenting".

I was thinking to try baytril + doxy and asking for Metacam and if he can get Zithromax (since he won't really have enough time to get it today anyways.) if the combo doesn't work within the next few days. I shall report back!

EDIT: And I think since she seems to really love the baby cereal we'll keep her on that instead of yogurt anyways. I assume this would help her gain some weight!

 

[victoria]

Awe... poor girl. Good luck at the vet.