Need some real advice please

[VonVicious]

Hello. I recently rescued a young adult rat I name Loki from a school class pet. He was alone his whole life. I am new to rats. He quickly because super awesome and I decided to get him cagemates. The babies Ruckus And Rebel Loved him,they all loved each other. Not even a month after Loki suddenly got I'll. He seemed to have some sort of mite or lice on him and I haven't been able to determine what. I used revolution on them two days prior. We had a very hot day and that seemed to have spiked something. His eyes and nose were bleeding!. Bleeding! It was terrifying horrible. I bathed Loki with some dawn and held him close the whole time. I blotted gently his eyes and nose. He seemed grateful for it. I seen some kind of bug in his eye. I never slept and stayed with as much as possible I did damage control in the house. My friend brought me some food grade diatomaceous earth to use in my house and Loki was separated from the babies at the time. While my friend was here Loki wanted me, he was very attached to me. He climbed into my arms and I carried him around for a lil while. I put him back and Vacuumed like a maniac for two hours. I went back to check on him and he was gone. In the spot I placed him in exactly. I'm devastated. He climbed into my arms to die. I should have never put him down. I feel beyond horrible about it. This happened so fast. He was only 8 months old. I'm angry and sad. But terrified for these babies who do not trust me. They knew something was wrong with him and stayed away before I had removed him from the big cage. I removed the babies from the big cage so I can one clean it and check for any bugs and two keep a closer eye on the babies in a small cage. They are so scared now and depressed. They aren't playing they are now at least eating and moving around again. But they know he's gone. They don't trust me. I want to cry Everytime I look at them. I can tell they want back into the big cage but I'm afraid to let them right now. It's been several days since Loki passed. I've yet to find any live bugs. I do not know if the babies have anything they do scratch. I guess my questions are what happened to Loki? And how can I get these babies to trust me and get them happy again. They are only 4 months old now. I would love to find an adult that needs adopting but I'm afraid of them getting sick. One point I might add is yes I'm new to rats but I do everything 110% I've non stop read and watch videos and I'm still at a loss. I have a general knowledge of rodents,I have hamsters which seem to be completely fine. Loki's tail from day one had a brownish dirt look to it and I thought that's just how it was,I've seen others in pics and videos that have it. I never thought much of it. When I bathed Loki it all came off clean. That upset me. Had I realized sooner? The revolution two days prior didn't help? It was too late?. I hope this all makes sense. I'm having a hard time even now talking about all this because I feel like the biggest piece of ****. I miss Loki so much and so does Ruckus and Rebel. I don't know what to do. I initially made a plea on my Facebook for someone to take the babies before some thing else bad happened . But they are still here. I do want them very much. I'm a lil stand offish since even before Loki died Ruckus bit me twice bleeding both times. Pretty sure it was on mistake because of food smell on my hands from treats. But it hurt a lot. I'm trying to get them used to me again. The cage is next to me all day and most of the night. They want out of there. They don't seem to have anything on them but I can't examine them properly. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm in another rat forum and they were no help at all. I posted a thread there the night Loki got sick pleading for advice and nothing and he was gone the next day. Over 30 reads and no one responded. We don't have many exotic vets here none that are close enough to take two babies for a check up. And also sadly very expensive. A friend of mine is a Er vet nurse so I look to her for advice often. Even she couldn't tell me much I didn't already know. I attached pics the larger cream colored rat is Loki you can see his tail how dirty it looks. I have a few pics of when I bathed Loki and his tail came clean. Ruckus is the gray and white faced Dumbo and his brother all gray faced dumbo. Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read this and respond.

 

[lilspaz68]

First thing I am going to say is you did nothing wrong, so you can stop beating yourself up about it. But lets go through everything little by little.

Revolution. If you saw parasites in his fur these were lice. They can come in on bedding and other rats and the best and safest treatment is what you did. Revolution (selamectin) is so safe you can practically bathe your rat in it and it won't hurt them. With Revo its best to treat all rats because even if only one is exhibiting symptoms as such, they all likely have them. Lice are icky but not particularly dangerous unless its a severe, long term infestation which could mean you might be dealing with anemia. More compromised rats will show the parasites first. Very unlikely that the Revo caused his issues.

Now IF you used ivermectin instead of Revolution (like a pour-on or spot-on treatment) this can kill your rats if you overdose it by mistake,.

Dirty tail. Happens to the best of rats. Most rats have a very specific grooming routine, and most stop before they ever get to the tail, whereas others will do part or all of the tail. depends on the rat. A dirty tail is a bit gross but not a health issue unless its so filthy the dirt is getting under the scales and lifting them up, these can allow bacteria and possible infections into the tail. Bathing with dish soap is my fav, and using a soft tooth brush in short strokes towards the tail tip (as you chase the rat around the sink) works best,

Red fluid from eyes is porphryin, a natural reddish substance they exhude from the harderian gland near their eye. Porph can also be in the urine etc. Normally you will see little or if you do see any, the rat has its first full grooming of the day and the porph is gone. If it comes back during the day you might have an issue. Porrph can mean stress, irritation or injury to eye, or body,or most usually it is a symptom of illness. If your lad didn't show any signs beyond porphryin the days prior to his death, no signs of respiratory infection (did you hold his sides to your ear to listen to his breathing) he was probably a little closer to a year old and may have had a stroke or heart attack. This can happen. You leave a 1 year old happy healthy rat in the morning and come home to them gone in the cage like they dropped. Its most likely something wrong with them physically and nothing you could prevent.

I am sorry. Time to love on those little grieving babies, who need you right now,

 

[VonVicious]

Thank you for the reply. I'm still not certain what happened to him. He was so amazing and happy and in less than 15 hrs gone. I should have taken a picture of what was happening but I was emotional and trying to hold it together to comfort him. The porph as you mentioned is new to me but does it also come out of the nose? Because this was his eyes and nose. And it really looked like blood. And it poured out of his eyes and nose. I still feel horrible. I did treat the babies the same time with revolution but I'm not sure it got to their skin because they don't let me handle them like that yet. And they are still scratching not terrible but they are. And the are so sad. I tear up Everytime I look at them. It's just so obvious they are depressed. I'm probably going to let them have the big cage back tomorrow. And hope that cheers them up some. Do you think I should try and dose them again with the revolution? Like I mentioned I'm not certain they got it properly. I'm hoping to find a adult male in need of a home also. They are breaking my heart, we all miss Loki.

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

I should have never put him down. I feel beyond horrible about it.

I feel five times more horrible than you, because it happened to me five times (two-year-old females). The more recent four were one per week for a month. There seems to never be enough time/experience/memory to figure out the right things to do.

The porph as you mentioned is new to me but does it also come out of the nose? Because this was his eyes and nose. And it really looked like blood. And it poured out of his eyes and nose.

Yes. The last of the five had it bubbling out of her nostrils hours before the end (I guess she drowned in it). It's more watery than blood I think is the detectable difference. I also have a three-year-old who had it dried on around nose/eyes for six months without any respiratory issues.

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

Dirty tail.

Wow I too always thought that was age spots.

not a health issue unless its so filthy the dirt is getting under the scales and lifting them up, these can allow bacteria and possible infections into the tail.

Tonight I washed it with mild soap and it's now white again, except a small spot and a big spot that didn't come off with gentle hand rubbing, to which I then applied olive oil, thinking it was caked gunk I could remove with sudsy toothbrush after it softened, which it never did, so must be scabs? Is it infected? Does it need the antibiotic ointment that's used for ring tail? Or how do I encourage them to heal and fall off? If anyone knows.

 

[lilspaz68]

to answer the OP, not the thread hijacker ... porphryin comes from the harderian gland behind the eye but the eye and nose are connected so that's normal to see it in both places at the same time. It drains through the nose.

If the babies didn't have scabs or noticeable bugs then wait on dosing with more Revo. If they develop any over the next 3 weeks then you can re-dose. I've done effective "drive-by" dosing in rescue before, it is helpful to place it on the skin but not always necessary. I had to dose over 100 rats during a rat transport layover and you have to do it quick and not always perfectly.

 

[lilspaz68]

I advise working on the babies for bonding and trust before thinking of adding another male. They don't need another older male, they have each other.

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

thread hijacker

No worries, my main reason for that post was to put it where the OP would see that they helped my elderly rat and probably saved her life. I was planning to, later when her scales have healed, post to let them know. When I see that the OP has seen it, I could move it or start a tail thread, but the OP did want discussion about the possibility of tail infection playing a part in a situation like this and about preventing in the babies whatever went wrong with the adult.

When I bathed Loki it all came off clean. That upset me. Had I realized sooner?

 

[VonVicious]

Thank you both so much this information is very helpful and I do feel better after reading. And seeing I'm not alone on this. I don't mind a lil thread highjacking I'm still learning so it's all appreciated and helpful. Much love

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

I don't mind a lil thread hijacking

I do mind thread hijacking when it's thread hijacking. Looks like I failed to further discussion on the tails part of your thread, but I guess his tail didn't play a part in what happened since there were no raised areas like on mine. I hope her health improves now that I know it's dirt so can keep her free of it.

they all loved each other

How many weeks old were they when they started living with him? I'm trying to figure out what age to get.

 

[VonVicious]

I do mind thread hijacking when it's thread hijacking. Looks like I failed to further discussion on the tails part of your thread, but I guess his tail didn't play a part in what happened since there were no raised areas like on mine. I hope her health improves now that I know it's dirt so can keep her free of it.

How many weeks old were they when they started living with him? I'm trying to figure out what age to get.

They were 3 months old when they moved in with him.

 

[VonVicious]

I'm still concerned for the babies. I still have them in the little cage so I can watch them more closely. Ruckus has some of that porph in his one eye. That I've been able to see. From what I've read especially since they are so young, none of it is good. Loki dying the way he did and seeing ruckus with it is worrying me a lot. I can't even say if their behavior is off because it's been off since Loki died. They have gotten better and more active but in-between they still seem sad. I want to move them back into the big cage I'm just so hesitant.

 

[lilspaz68]

The cage has nothing to do with it. Any contagious virus dies after 3-4 hours offhost. Put them in the big cage and see if they bounce back

 

[VonVicious]

I didn't think the big cage did. I only have kept them in the smaller cage so I can see more easily if they have live or mites also. I the large cage the debris in general get plenty so distinguishing what's what is more difficult for me. And with Ruckus showing that porph in his eye extra concerned. They are moving back in today after it's done drying in the sun. It's been hosed down and disinfected.