nebulizing sucks!

[wonderrodent]

My beloved Sophie hasn't been doing so well. She's had respiratory problems for a while now and I've tried lots of meds (doxy/baytril, zithro/baytril/metacam, lasix and another heart med to no avail). Now she is on baytril/prednisone and I have to nebulize her with abuterol. Right now I put her into a carrier (that I wrap tightly into bubble wrap and a blanket over it). She panics and just hates it. The first time she got so scared that she ripped off her finger nail on her pinky. I feel so sorry for her and it breaks my heart to see her panicing. I wish I could tell her that I just want her to get better :sad3: . Today I will buy a little plastic container that I will use for nebulizing her. Is there any way I can make this more "pleasant" for her? Why do rats panic so much when they get nebulized? I fear that I am losing her trust and she'll hate me forever. Right now she seeks me for comfort, she wants to be with me. Well, this morning after nebulizing her I felt like she hated me :sad3: . It seems like the nebulizing helps, though. The breathing noise is less but I can still see (and hear when I get closer to her chest) that she is having a hard time breathing. She just wants to lay around or be in my lap. If I just knew if she is still happy. She changed dramatically.

 

[lilspaz68]

sounds like nebulizing is stressing her out too much, I would stop. Can you get your hands on a albuterol human puffer instead? or an oral bronchodilator like aminophylline?

 

[wonderrodent]

Yes, I have an inhaler myself and I heard there are also inhalers you can get OTC.
My vet actually mentioned oral bronchodilators. I can only hope she won't be fussy eating it. I had the hardest time getting the prednisone into her (even when I mix it with the best food) and so far she's been great with all the other meds. I switched to prednisone tablets and for now she likes that better.

Is one better than the other (nebulizing vs. oral bronchodilator) or should it have the same effect?
How do you give a rat a puffer so it won't be wasted?
Thanks Shelagh!

 

[Melissa's ZOO]

When I was nebulizing Willow, I put her in her carrier with her cube hammock and I held the nebulizer thing as close to her face as I could. She would go into her cube and I would shove it in there with her. She seemed to panic less. She may not get as much of the meds but it will be enough. Or my vet suggested giving her a piece of food to occupy her while she is in the carrier. I hope Sophie gets better soon. :hugs:

 

[lilspaz68]

I do the same thing for a Puffer...use a small box, punch a hole for the inhaler to fit into...put down fleece, put rat in box, close quickly then a few puffs of the inhaler...let them sit for a minute..they still panic sometimes but its usually a shorter time.

 

[SQ]

At present I am putting 5 ratties in a small clear plastic bin, with a few air holes on one side of the lid and a fleece blanket on the bottom. Then I add one puff from a puffer (perscription from the drug store) and leave them for a couple of miniutues. They do not mind it at all.
When I used to nubulize my rats, they were very stressed.

My vet and the drug store said to only use one puff ... but I guess I should start using a solid lid ... will change that today.

 

[lilspaz68]

I was told 2 puffs in the box...up to 4 times a day. I only used it with a gasping rat myself and it worked

 

[jorats]

Nebulizing a sick rat really stresses them out. The air seems to become thin and the the fact that they don't recognize where they are is really stressful.
When I spoke to my vet about this, she told me that if it stresses them out, don't do it. What you could do is have the rat on you and you hold the cup near her. Some will get into her but it's better than having her go into a full blown panic attack which leads to shortness of breath which means she doesn't inhale the meds properly anyway.
I've used human inhalers on the rats. I take a paper bag, place the rat in, place the mouth of the inhaler in the opening of the bag and puff twice. Seems to have worked at the time.
Have you discussed trying mucomyst? I used it on my Cado and it seemed to have helped somewhat.

 

[Debbie]

Wow, I typed up a big ole reply, but it didn't show up. I think I hit the Preview button, then never posted it. :doh:

Anyway, I just can't sing the praises of the nebulizer enough. I know many people have had problems and say it stressed ratties out. But over the last 8 years, we've only had two that were stressed. One was when we were given inaccurate info and the vet told us to use Baytril. That is a HUGE mistake! Injectable baytril BURNS and will certainly stress any rat, if used in a nebulizer.
The other rattie was just too compromised and everything sent him into a gasping fit. Not only could we no longer put him in the nebulizer, we had to make the hard decision to let him go. :sad3:

I think the key is to get the right set up and use the right combo of meds. My rats all just sit in the little chamber and either groom or snuggle with a pal. They can be slightly annoyed at first, but they never panic at our house. Seriously.

I'd post a pic of my set up, but don't have access to it from work. I'll post it when I get home, or maybe SQ might still have the one I sent her a while back??

Here's our mix:
Aminophilline (bronchialdialator)
Aceytlsystein (i.e mucomyst)
Gentamycin (ab)
Saline

We have saved many a seriously ill rattie with neb treatments. I've got to be doing something that others may not be, because mine seriously do NOT stress out. They are like "oh, looks like we get the sauna again". It does help to have a pal in there with them. And since we have so many ratties, some else could always use the benefit too. I have two groups of siblings that share their neb treatments and have each other to "sauna" with. :nod:

 

[jorats]

Debbie do you use all those at once?
Another member here, Vanessa, successfully treated very sick rats with gentacin with a nebulizer.

I've nebulized using injectible Baytril for over 4 years now with no problems on my healthier rats. It's not pure injectible baytril, it's mixed with saline.

 

[SQ]

Here is a picture of Debbie's setup

Still waiting for my vet to get in the meds so I can try nebulising with the meds you suggested, Debbie.

 

[Debbie]

Jo,
Yes, we use all of the meds I listed. It's 3.5ml of Saline, .5ml of the three others. Sometimes I use 1ml of Gentamycin. But the mix is enough for two, 10 minute sessions.

As for the baytril.....ours was mixed in Saline too (as in the little mixing chamber) that one time we used it, and it does still have a burning affect on them. It really is quite hard on their lungs. :sad3: The good thing is, you can always give the Baytril orally and use another ab in the nebulizer that's not so harsh to breathe.

Another good AB (though it's harder to get a hold of, more expensive and has to be frozen after mixing as it only lasts 2 weeks) is Claforen. That works even better than the Gentamycin.

The Saline is really the best part of the neb mix as it cuts down on them having to get the full on meds directly...AND it helps add moisture, to help bring up some of the gunk in their lungs. It took me a while to understand that for rats with CHF and excess fluid, that the nebulizer adding moisture was actually helping.

My lab boy Nick has bad CHF. He's crashed and rallied three times now. he's on all the right meds, but sometimes that's not enough and we have to start up the neb treatments again. Then he'll be good to go for a few months without it. As luck would have it, he's in really bad shape right now. I'm not sure he'll make it this time, but I'm nebbing him like crazy and hope to pull him through again.

 

[lilspaz68]

Hmmm....regarding Debbie's setup. I bought those Show-off Containers and made them into carriers for winter...they were shorter and my rats really didn't like them. then when I got a taller slightly bigger show-off container they were just fine with them. THAT container looks short and might make her feel trapped. :undecided:

 

[Debbie]

Hmmm....regarding Debbie's setup. I bought those Show-off Containers and made them into carriers for winter...they were shorter and my rats really didn't like them. then when I got a taller slightly bigger show-off container they were just fine with them. THAT container looks short and might make her feel trapped. :undecided:

The container I have, now has a crack down one side and is taped up. I've been looking for something a bit taller this time around too. So I agree a taller one might be best. :wink: You don't want a container that's too big thought, or you kind of waste the meds.

 

[jorats]

Is there documentation that injectable Baytril is hard on the lungs? How did you come to find this out?
I have yet to see any ill effects on my gang.

 

[Pink]

I've always heard baytril burns when nebulized so I give it orally, or if needed, inject it.

I nebulize a lot. I found that my crew got really stressed when I used smaller containers, so I tried a five gallon tank. I put a plexi glass sheet on top, and the corner that the tube comes out creates a little vent. I just tape the nebulizer to the inside of the tank. Now that i have a bigger container my rats are far more relaxed about being nebulized.

For some rats I've found I am able to hold them on my lap and nebulize them there. I have done this in cases of extreme respiratory distress where I don't feel like the animal can handle being put in the tank.

For US members - Kroger and Fred Meyers has albuterol on their $3 medications, so if your vet will write you a script you can get it for super cheap. The box will last you until it expires, a year or two later. Walmart has a similar list of medications, I do not know if you can get it there.

Pink

 

[Debbie]

Is there documentation that injectable Baytril is hard on the lungs? How did you come to find this out?
I have yet to see any ill effects on my gang.

Jo, I'll be at the vet's office in about an hour. I'll ask her if she knows were we can find documented proof that the Baytril burns. I have 3 exotic vets I see (though usually stick with the one we are going to, today) 2 are in the same clinic, one is not. All three have told me about the baytril burning. So I have always gone on what they've said and others rat owners I've talked with in the past about nebulizing.

But if you or your vet would like the documentation, I most certainly will see if I can find it. I know how our vets can vary in opinons. :wink2:

 

[Godmother]

I wonder if the excess heat is what bothers them. I like the idea of using a larger container. Nebulizing is such a good idea, but my only experience with it was so negative. The rats were frightened.

 

[jorats]

The thing is... I've been nebulizing with injectible baytril for a long time, one group of rats were nebulized every 2 months from 3 months old to 30 months old and the postmortems of those that have not died from lung disease had wonderfully healthy lungs at death. So I can't see how the injectible baytril harms the lungs.

 

[Pink]

I realized I had a picture of my nebulizing tank, so I figured I should post it here incase anyone wanted to make something simular. The mist does get a bit thicker (and it was flashed out).

There for four rats in there, 3 PEWs and 1 siamese. The three PEWS are related, and have really bad genes, so they have been sick all their life. The siamese is 44 months old so she's a bit wheezy, and feels better after being nebulized. She's not sick, just getting older than her lungs can really handle.

I of course put my foot through my beloved nebulizer tank, so I am looking for another now.

Pink