I really need help

[Pandora]

See post "aggressive attacking #2 tw flesh" for extra details.

I'm looking forward a bit and I need some help with whether I should do reintroduction with my boys once Bean's injury heals. I have a feeling they will be living separated for until they die... But i want to try. Whenever they had out of cage time they were prettymuch ok with each other, minus some screaming. But in cage they hate each other. Mochi scares bean and cookie to the point of being cornered. If i put them back together ever I'm scared mochi will cause even more harm...

Cheesesteak it kind of a moot character in this development, minus the fact i put him in my separated boys cage to say hi... He smells like mochi, so of course cookie starts power grooming him and bean and cookie were sniffing his dongle.

I will still have supervised group out of cage time, in a neutral location. (My bathtub with towels and boxes in it)

 

[Coffee Babies]

You can try a long introduction method which would get the two rats used to each other without having to meet face to face first: Using Baby Steps to Introduce Rats to Rats - JoinRats

 

[Big Schpog]

Here's what I did to introduce 2 babies to a very bonded 1 yr old female. I am HER mama and that's that. She is territorial over me and this apartment.

Here's how it went:

brought babies home and had a cage to house them
My adult female has free range 24/7 so she would go up to the cage and huff and nip them through the bars
This went on for a few weeks
I tried table top with vanilla extract but Big Schpog would turn and bite them on the neck, especially the dominant baby Queenie. Never drew blood on her but didn't even want to try

I finally took them all into a very strange place none of them had ever been: the big bathroom. PUt on the fan and a bit of running water. Said NOTHING to them. Just opened the boxes and let them figure it out. No encouragement from me. Not a peep. Not a facial expression. I just sat there while they were on the counter.

Fight. Flight. Avoidance. Submission.

Those are the stages and I watched them go through all of them.

After about half hour, I'd wait till they all climbed into the same carrier and closed it and brought them back to the apartment. Submission was them together in an enclosed space.

I had to do that 3 times. ON the 3rd time I just opened up the carrier they all went into and freed them into the apartment territory. There was a couple squeaks but they're fine now. THey all have the entire territory.

TLDR: I put them in a completely new and scary place together and waited for them to simmer down with each other. There wasn't a SINGLE nip or bite while in the bathroom.

 

[Pandora]

Here's what I did to introduce 2 babies to a very bonded 1 yr old female. I am HER mama and that's that. She is territorial over me and this apartment.

Here's how it went:

brought babies home and had a cage to house them
My adult female has free range 24/7 so she would go up to the cage and huff and nip them through the bars
This went on for a few weeks
I tried table top with vanilla extract but Big Schpog would turn and bite them on the neck, especially the dominant baby Queenie. Never drew blood on her but didn't even want to try

I finally took them all into a very strange place none of them had ever been: the big bathroom. PUt on the fan and a bit of running water. Said NOTHING to them. Just opened the boxes and let them figure it out. No encouragement from me. Not a peep. Not a facial expression. I just sat there while they were on the counter.

Fight. Flight. Avoidance. Submission.

Those are the stages and I watched them go through all of them.

After about half hour, I'd wait till they all climbed into the same carrier and closed it and brought them back to the apartment. Submission was them together in an enclosed space.

I had to do that 3 times. ON the 3rd time I just opened up the carrier they all went into and freed them into the apartment territory. There was a couple squeaks but they're fine now. THey all have the entire territory.

TLDR: I put them in a completely new and scary place together and waited for them to simmer down with each other. There wasn't a SINGLE nip or bite while in the bathroom.

Thats awesome!! How do you do free range?? Like what kind of set up do you have so they wont chew everything?

 

[Big Schpog]

I live in a very small apartment, it's almost a room. I have cords in the room but they're not interested in them. They are learning from the older female that cords aren't really any fun. They get so much stimulation from being free and having so much luxury that they don't bother with the cords., I have the fridge entrances sealed off. Don't want to have ratties stuck under there. They have a rotating book shelf to climb on, a nice wide window sill, and they LOVE the closet. They have a large carrier and large purse filled with fleece that they can sleep in. They sleep on the top shelf of the closet or in a soft little box with fleece on my bed.

I am home almost all the time due tp spinal disability. I fill their life with such exciting things that the few cords are just left alone. I take them for walks. I feed them exciting foods. They have a great life. They can return to the cage whenever they want as the doors are always open but they prefer the closet. I have 3 water stations and a main food station out of the cage. They also get treats handed to them wherever they happen to be.

I don't really know why it all works but it does. They're extremely bonded to me.

 

[Big Schpog]

I have a bit of an addendum here to how I introduced them:

When I say Submission and what it looked like, it was them CHOOSING to go all into the same carrier. They were on a tall long bathroom counter. They couldn't avoid very well and I knew that my older female would choose to avoid if she could. She did try to avoid by running away from them and hopping into her carrier but eventually, she couldn't keep that up so she HAD to interact with them, and because it wasn't HER territory, she didn't try to fight them to protect it.

Eventually, after about 20 minutes, they all CHOSE to enter the same small carrier and that's when I zipped it up and brought them all back to my place and just opened it on my bed and allowed them to chose where they wanted to be in the territory. As I said, there were a few squeaks and that's because one baby is super pushy. I saw her nose off with my older female a couple times but eventually they all settled down. THere were no serious fights, no blood, just more 'getting to know you' squeaks.

My older female is a bit overwhelmed by Queenie the pushy little girl and sometimes she does run under my covers and asks me to protect her from Queenie's baby chaos but they don't fight. For pet rats, my entire place is a pretty large territory and they can always find places to be alone if they want.

 

[Pandora]

I have a bit of an addendum here to how I introduced them:

When I say Submission and what it looked like, it was them CHOOSING to go all into the same carrier. They were on a tall long bathroom counter. They couldn't avoid very well and I knew that my older female would choose to avoid if she could. She did try to avoid by running away from them and hopping into her carrier but eventually, she couldn't keep that up so she HAD to interact with them, and because it wasn't HER territory, she didn't try to fight them to protect it.

Eventually, after about 20 minutes, they all CHOSE to enter the same small carrier and that's when I zipped it up and brought them all back to my place and just opened it on my bed and allowed them to chose where they wanted to be in the territory. As I said, there were a few squeaks and that's because one baby is super pushy. I saw her nose off with my older female a couple times but eventually they all settled down. THere were no serious fights, no blood, just more 'getting to know you' squeaks.

My older female is a bit overwhelmed by Queenie the pushy little girl and sometimes she does run under my covers and asks me to protect her from Queenie's baby chaos but they don't fight. For pet rats, my entire place is a pretty large territory and they can always find places to be alone if they want.

I would love to free roam my boys, but unfortunately I have so many spots that they could get into an escape

 

[SQ]

As lilspaz68 said in your previous post, the two boys must live separately. So they need to live as 2 separate pairs. Follow her advice.

In your other thread lilspaz68 commented on your cages being too small for 4 ratties especially because hormonal boys need a lot of space.

If the 4 boys are ok together supervised outside of the cage then that might be ok to continue.

Your only other option is if Mochi is in good health, then find a good rat vet with the knowledge and experience to safely neuter rats and have your boy neutered. (Only gas is given until after surgery when an injection of Metacam is given for pain - otherwise nothing by injection). Then once enough time has passed so that his hormone levels have dropped you can carefully try very very gradual intros (since he tried to kill Bean) - there are established intro steps in our REFERENCE Thread - Read Only as well as good ideas on joinrats.com

 

[Pandora]

As lilspaz68 said in your previous post, the two boys must live separately. So they need to live as 2 separate pairs. Follow her advice.

In your other thread lilspaz68 commented on your cages being too small for 4 ratties especially because hormonal boys need a lot of space.

If the 4 boys are ok together supervised outside of the cage then that might be ok to continue.

Your only other option is if Mochi is in good health, then find a good rat vet with the knowledge and experience to safely neuter rats and have your boy neutered. (Only gas is given until after surgery when an injection of Metacam is given for pain - otherwise nothing by injection). Then once enough time has passed so that his hormone levels have dropped you can carefully try very very gradual intros (since he tried to kill Bean) - there are established intro steps in our REFERENCE Thread - Read Only as well as good ideas on joinrats.com

I would love to get mochi neutered, but I don't have the money right now... Our best option is two separate cages... They're doing well in separate cages... Mochis cagemate keeps him in line. (His cagemate had no nardz but also takes no shite) ..... I have no plans on reintroducing them because even in supervised playtime Bean starts to instigate. Mochi is fine out of cage until Bean is up in his face. Mochi is territorial about his cage because Bean wants to challenge hierarchy but mochi is ruthless. The only one that can stand up to mochi is cheese (the nardless) so far everyone has been happy so I'm not too worried currently. Beans "beans" are healing nicely. Cookie and bean are chilling out on the couch with me currently.

 

[Pandora]

As lilspaz68 said in your previous post, the two boys must live separately. So they need to live as 2 separate pairs. Follow her advice.

In your other thread lilspaz68 commented on your cages being too small for 4 ratties especially because hormonal boys need a lot of space.

If the 4 boys are ok together supervised outside of the cage then that might be ok to continue.

Your only other option is if Mochi is in good health, then find a good rat vet with the knowledge and experience to safely neuter rats and have your boy neutered. (Only gas is given until after surgery when an injection of Metacam is given for pain - otherwise nothing by injection). Then once enough time has passed so that his hormone levels have dropped you can carefully try very very gradual intros (since he tried to kill Bean) - there are established intro steps in our REFERENCE Thread - Read Only as well as good ideas on joinrats.com

 

[Big Schpog]

I would love to get mochi neutered, but I don't have the money right now... Our best option is two separate cages... They're doing well in separate cages... Mochis cagemate keeps him in line. (His cagemate had no nardz but also takes no shite) ..... I have no plans on reintroducing them because even in supervised playtime Bean starts to instigate. Mochi is fine out of cage until Bean is up in his face. Mochi is territorial about his cage because Bean wants to challenge hierarchy but mochi is ruthless. The only one that can stand up to mochi is cheese (the nardless) so far everyone has been happy so I'm not too worried currently. Beans "beans" are healing nicely. Cookie and bean are chilling out on the couch with me currently.

There might be resources to find for neutering at your SPCA. This is how I got my girls treated for free for mites and a general check up.