Breeding

[LA]

I wasn't sure where to put this. I also am not sure how you will react to this, but I really do need to talk to you guys about it because you have MUCH more knowledge then I.

While I was out with the girls I went into the pet store (Mike and Marion the owners are good friends of mine). Marion, fawned over Lily (beige bareback with ruby eyes). They currently have a male in there that is beige hooded with pink eyes, he was found after being left in an apartment. She said that she would be quite interested in breeding that male and Lily. She is very interested in their colourings. At first I was like no way. I went home and asked Wayne about it and he said he was for doing it. And he said of course if we did it we would keep a female. She would take the babies at the end. And if I had any extra costs I would get her to pay for them (vet visit etc).

Of course I have many concerns:
I don't know much about breeding, it would be a lot of learning before I even decided to start. But I realize that I may have to separate Lily from my girls. If I had to separate Lily from the other two I don't know how she would take to being alone. Also it's a lot of other work. Plus I don't know if I could handle one of the babies being born dead or dealing with the things that I have heard of. Melissa litter of course sounded very simple which I am so happy about. I don't know how Lily would take to being a mother. Also I don't know anything about this male rat.

On one hand I am not sure if I could handle it, it would of course be after we move, all I have to tell Marion is that we decide yes and she will keep the male. About the health of the rats in general... things like that.
But on the other I am kind of wanting to do it, I wouldn't mind the effort it would take.

I'm just so confused. I know there is the saying don't breed when shelter rats die. I do know in my area there aren't many rats up for adoption (Barrie yes not Midland and Penetanguishene). Getting rats in this area is somewhat difficult. But I am not making reasons why I should do this, I just wanted to explain that point.

I'm so confused. Please give me some insight. Some more information of all the good and bad about doing this.

 

[Bronwyn]

You've got guts. ;D I'd be too afraid to post something like this, lol. But I have some thoughts.

Basically you figure out why you're breeding, which seems to be to find out the coat colourings. I can only assume beige bareback x beige hooded will give you a lot of beige babies, if not all beige. I -think- beige is homozygous recessive so unless I'm wrong, and it can be a phenotype with a heterozygous gene then they're all going to be beige. I doubt you'd see any selfs in there. But it's of course a little more complicated than just knowing the parents. Why my agouti boy and beige girl only had one agouti baby of their ten I have no idea...past generations would answer that! For the record I didn't breed them to anyone raising an eyebrow at that, I became the caretaker after their owner decided cleaning the cage was no longer fun.

Anyway! In my personal opinion, so long as you guys have the homes figured out, and something reliable like your own home (people back out) and the vet bills anticipated I'm not exactly going to call you a bad person, lol.

The breeding process itself is quite simple. They're rats and are quite self sufficient. All you really need to do is supply an extra special supplement for Lily while she's pregnant and nursing just to keep her health up as it's a rather strenuous thing, raising all those kids. I don't know about seperating her, that's an area I'm unfamiliar with. The more pregnant she is, the higher the chance she'll become protective of her nesting area and whatnot and might lash out. Personally my pregnant girl didn't care what I did to her or her babies but not all rats will react that way. I gave her her own cage about a week before I thought she was due (I had no idea what had gone on seeing as they were dumped on me) so she'd have time to make her nest and just relax.

There are risks as you say. She may have trouble in labour, she may not accept all the babies, etc. I don't think the odds are that high if she's young enough but it is certainly worth keeping in mind.

And I'll just shut up now and let the experts take over and correct what I said. ;D

Edit: I think the only flaw here is WHY you want to breed her. If one could call it a flaw. It simply seems like housing up to 12 babies or whatever she produces will be more cumbersome than finding out what they create. Make a pro/con list? : )

 

[LA]

My posting this question shows my trust in people on this board that they won't yell at me, call me stupid and make me feel bad for even thinking about it. HEHE... now they really can't do that. Kidding. This forum I trust, I would never ask this on the other one...

Thanks Bron for what you said. I have been reading up on genetics, I'm not sure what they would have as I don't know the parents at all. Ruby and Hazels parents are agouti hooded and beige hooded and all they had were agoutie hooded (maybe barebacks as well I didn't know the colouring thing at the time) and pews.

Lots to think about.

 

[Bronwyn]

Ooo that makes sense. Agouti's the dominant colour, and hooded x hooded = h/h so 100% hooded. At least your genes made sense. :laugh2:

My agouti hooded x beige self = a ridiculous plethora of colours. Biggest mystery, lol.

Hopefully you're right and you won't get negative responses to this. I remember feeling like crap on the other forum when trying to rehome my babies...the tiny detail that I didn't breed them didn't seem to help the general attitude I got, particularly in PM's.

Let the responses be educational!

 

[jorats]

Hi LA,

About the colourings... they would all be beige. If the rats had agouti in their genes, your rats would be fawn already. Because they are beige they only have aa (black)

Basically, both rats are aabbrr, the rr is for ruby eyes, which is what turn the black into the beige. You would have nothing but beige.

Second... NOOOOOOOOOOO! to the breeding. :lol:

Ok, just had to get that out of my system, now for the info.

There are many things that can go wrong. Lily could miscarry and die, she could have a baby stuck in her canal and die, she could become over stressed with the birthing and develop severe myco, she can develop myco by being in close proximity to a rat that you have no knowledge of health, she could become somewhat aggressive due to having babies... and I'm sure there are plenty more. Now, this is worse case scenerio.

Everything might go well and Lily pops out these cute little beige babies all of whom have unknown background. Does the male rat carry the aggressive gene, does Lily? Just because the rats are sweet with you, doesn't mean it's not in their gene, do they have diseases? Are they prone to myco, will the new little babies live a life of pain and suffering? Will your grandratties live a life of extreme fear when being fed to a snake? Will their new owners down the line decide I'm tired of your grandratties, out the door they go in the dead of winter? Will the grandratties have a home like yours where vets visits happen.

These are all possibilities... when you bring life into the world, you really need to think if these new lives will suffer or not. These new lives are in your hands.


We have a breeder in my city. One day this breeder decided to breed. Sudbury now has a bunch of aggressive males running around. We take them in and neuter them. But most times, they are thrown outside and lord knows how many we've missed but so far, all the males have been aggressive to a degree, some very severe while others more mild, but your average pet person will not tolerate being bitten, will not neuter a rat and may not have the decency to bring to the SPCA.

The breeding itself is fun, thrilling but the consequences can be devastating.

 

[user 78]

I have a nice little soapbox just for these types of questions... But I'll refrain from using it for the moment.

Besides the multiple things that can go wrong, you know next to nothing about either rat. Lily could be carrying something bad, a genetic disease that could kill her babies. So could the male. Megacolon, resistant strains of myco, organ disorders, aggressive issues... Any one of a thousand different things. Look through Goosemoose, see all the problems that people are having with their rats. Those are the most common issues that pop up with feeder breeders, and a decent list of what you could expect.

Honestly, that's what you can also expect people to think of you after that. A feeder breeder at worse, a backyard breeder at best. Someone who cares very little for the health and well being of the next generation. You're not doing it to improve the fancy at all, but to get pretty colors. As I recall, a breeder in Canada already did that, and has awful examples of the domestic rat running rampant as a standard. They're sickly, small, aggressive, and die very young.

Your friend, the owner, may have the best intentions in the world. So do you. My grandmother always told me the path to hell is paved with good intentions. You're really meaning to do well here, but it's a slippery slope that can end in alot of hurt. You mean well, but that could be up to 20 babies that all get deathly ill within their first month. That could be purchased under the guise of a pet and fed to a snake. That could be kicked out into the dead of winter because the kid who got them doesn't like them anymore. Who have severe medical issues, and their owner refuses to take a $5 rat to the vet.. The same excuses you see over on Goosemoose is, unfortunately, the opinion at large. All those people who swear up and down they love their rats, but then one day everything changes. There's no way to know, either.

I hate to use GM as an example for these things, but it does get the most variety of people. Which is good.. and bad. You can see the consistency of pet store rats and bad health, aggression issues, etc..

If, for whatever reason, you really do want to offer a better type of rat in your area, find a mentor. I'm sure many of us on here would be more than happy to suggest some qualified breeders for you to speak with. It won't be as easy as the pet store's making it for you, but it will be making a better rat for your area. Something much better than what's become acceptable. You can try and start a rescue of your own, which again won't be half so easy as what the pet store is offering. In the end, though, the pet store people can find themselves another pet store female if they want to breed that male. You've only got the one Lily, and I'm sure you would be devastated if something did go wrong.

ETA: I noticed a couple other concerns you had.. Lily would most definitely need to be separated from her cagemates. Many breeders I know pull them from the cage atleast a week in advance of their due date, which allows them time to get accustomed to their maternity cage before the birth. Then she'll remain with the babies until they're 4 to 4.5 weeks old when you'll need to separate the sexes. You most likely will have to go through intros all over again.

Okay, I've rambled on a bit.. I honestly hope you make the decision most of us are rooting for.

 

[lilspaz68]

I cannot add anything more to what Jo and javakittie said besides that I totally agree with them.

 

[LA]

Thank you all for your comments and not yelling at me for even asking this. I knew in my head that I didn't really want to do this but also thought of how 'cool' it could be. I don't want to put Lily through that, also I don't want to put Hazel and Ruby through that - taking Lily away reintroducing them. My first intro went amazingly well I don't want to have to redo it and have it turn into a disaster. I told Wayne I didn't not want to get into this. There are too many concerns. I do not begrudge Marion for asking me this, she got caught up in the what could they look like. She knew it would be beige colours. I will call her Sat or Monday with my answer. It is a definate NO.

Again thank you.

 

[Moon]

I'm glad you chose no. Between not knowing anything about the Male's upbringing and breeding and Lily being from a petstore, the chances are just too high of things going awry. And then there's all the stuff that the others said LOL

I can see why it would be tempting, though, just from the idea of having babies around.

I think you did the right thing coming here and asking our opinions.. you certainly knew what we were going to say, I think, and I guess you knew you wanted to hear it.

 

[LA]

Yeah I did need to hear it from you guys. Wayne was for it but I have done WAY MORE research then him on rats.

I told him in the beginning if we had done it I would have done up a contract that would include:

1. cage is provided, along with food and any special food requirements are met.
2. Any vet visits due to the mating and labour etc would be covered by them
3. We would get first pick of the litter of one female.
4. No matter what happens, they would be required to take the rats even if they were not what they were expecting.

After I told Wayne all this he looked at me and said 'this is why I am marrying you' hehe. I am not good absorbing things right away but give me a day to think about it and I am very thorough.

I know my pet store. They are very picky about who they give their animals to. Parents have to come in with kids to approve of the sale and ownership persay. Also they explain fully what is required of the animal. They are very good. They also take in animals that are not wanted anymore. Which is nice.

But still that good intentions comment is so true. So yes I am definately happy with my decision for sure it's not something I want to do... let leave it to the pros.

 

[jorats]

I'm so glad that you've decided against it. I'm also very happy that Wayne is understanding as well and appreciates his woman.

 

[Bronwyn]

Agreed. It's a pretty fun idea but as mentioned it's pretty much the only real "pro." Not to mention if you already know they'll be all beige there's not much of a surprise waiting, which seems to be your friend's idea.

I love Wayne's reaction.

 

[SQ]

I am very glad you have decided not to breed.
Good news for your little girl, and for the unborn generations.
If both rats are not from good breeders (if there are any somewhere), then they likely carry serious genetic problems.

We are finding that rats in our area have a great deal of congestive heart failure and pituitary tumors. This is due to bad genetics .... rats around here come from a mill in Quebec, or their parents or grandparents, etc. did.

People who breed rats without knowing and taking into account all the diseases in the ratties family history for many many generations, just breed more rats that will suffer and die at young ages from genetic problems ... ratties deserve better than that.

 

[Sorraia]

I think in your heart you knew the answer, your gut was telling you "NO", but as you said, you just needed to hear it from someone else.

Speaking AS a breeder, it really is hard work. Yes, it's a LOT of fun, but a LOT of hard work AND heartache. It takes a lot of money as well, money that you will not recoup from your rats (there's a saying in horses, "If you want to make a million dollars breeding horses, start with two million.", the same can be said for breeding rats). In my own personal opinion, breeding one litter every now and then just for colors is not a good enough reason. There are so many rats that DO need homes, it would be better to foster (or adopt) a pregnant mother rat and raise those babies, or put funds together to get a ratty train together and find much needed homes for rescue rats. A serious breeder should be in it for the long-term, not just until the thrill runs out or the latest fad changes.

 

[Bronwyn]

There was a pregnant black rat at the local pet store in a tiny cage...I felt awful for her being among all that noise. So I kept visiting and she had four babies (that I could see). I asked to adopt her while she was pregnant but they said no, I'm assuming so they'd have more to sell. I offered again when the babies were born offering to take them all so they'd have some peace and quiet. Still no. There was nothing a pet store would see as special about them. They appeared to be blacks and pews.

The disturbing thing is, 4 weeks later I came back, they would have been 5 weeks old and they were all gone.

 

[Vanessa]

One thing I wanted to add to this.
I remember a very sad situation, and one of the only handful of times that Carole used the Canada Rat Adoption Yahoo list.
One day Carole posted a frantic post to that list deploring those in the Toronto area to keep an eye out for two rats that she had sold to someone. According to Carole, all the necessary screening is done before approval of a purchase, and she only sells to the perfect home.
It turns out that this perfect home dumped her two rats at a high kill animal control facility in Toronto (not a shelter or humane society), only contacted Carole after they had dropped them off to let her know, and Carole was desperately looking for them in order to get them out. Carole even went so far as to accuse Rabbit Rescue of having them, but at that time Rabbit Rescue had not taken in any rats for ages and unfortunately didn't have her two girls.
I kept my eyes open daily, checking all the online resources that I could, hoping that those girls would materialize on a website and I would have gone and bailed them out. I also called all the animal control facilities that I could find in and around Toronto with no luck. After three weeks I knew that they would not be found and I gave up looking.
Often rats who find themselves in animal control facilities are almost immediately destroyed. Those that might be a bit scared or defensive, or are showing any signs of illness, will be destroyed right away.
I could never live with myself knowing that there was even a one in a million chance that one of the rats that I intentionally brought into the world would be so tragically destroyed. That is something that would cause me to lose sleep, and something that every single breeder needs to take into consideration regardless of how adamant they are in their processes.

 

[LA]

I agree with that Vanessa. At the moment I could say I wouldn't get attached but I would have at least 5 weeks with the rats and dealing with that would be hard. Just more and more reasons why I am glad I said no.