Advice/support required on possible PTS

[mamarat]

It's always so much better when we know what is wrong and how we can help. :hugs:

 

[jorats]

(((hugs))))

 

[victoria]

Unespuce, did the doctor hear fluid in the lungs before? (Is it Dr. Beaulieu you go to?) For those of you with experience with CHF, is it possible that some of the congestion goes away without heart meds? I'm asking because I suspected heart issues with Monty for a little bit but didn't think it quite fit... I had him on Batryl, Doxi, and/or Zithro for 4 months and he suddenly got better when I turned on the AC. I stopped meds 10 days ago but he started wheezing a bit last night. (I can only hear it if he's on my shoulder.) I was going to call the vet tomorrow if he's still wheezing at playtime to get nebulizer prescriptions, but I'm wondering if maybe I should get an x-ray first. Sorry for the thread-jacking...

 

[Unepuce]

Victoria, don't worry about jumping in!

Yes, my main vet is Dr Beaulieu and all she could hear during exams was myco. I honestly don't believe she heard any fluid - and believe me, there is a lot in there! I believe it's worth trying the X-ray, but it may be my too recent experience blinding me. I know next time I see a rat struggle that much, I will be too panicky to wait two months before I get one!

 

[Fidget]

Unepuce, if your girl is having so much trouble and a vet visit can't fix it you're not obligated by love to go into debt doing testing or trying everything, you know. It doesn't mean you love her any less, it doesn't mean you are any less a good mom to her - which is what matters.
None of us are gonna recognize you in heaven and greet you at the gates except Chatouille, and that will depend on how you treated her in the time god or fate gave you together, not how much more time your money could buy her at the expense of your own well-being or her comfort. She knows what was in your heart.
Who's to say buying them extra time is always kinder than what god/fate intended for them anyway? Your kid is your obligation, you have to provide sustenance & pleasure & comfort and medical care that pertains to all that, but it's a matter of perspective how much is enough and how much is too much.
Don't let expectations of other people sway you. You know your kid best, if you truly love her then make it honestly about fulfilling her needs (comfort being one of them) and not about your needs to please people who aren't living with & loving your kid. We're only here to help you & her, not to decide what's right for either of you.
She's your first obligation - not any human on a ratty site. and you're your 2nd obligation. If your heart's in the right place your mind & choices will follow.
Hugs.

 

[Unepuce]

Actually, as mentionned earlier in the thread, Chatouille remained Chatouille all the way, only VERY tired. Yesterday, after the vet brought her back to me following the X-ray, she was lying in the carrier, along side with my Mimi, and I started petting her head -for the first time in the almost 2 years I've had her, she started bruxing and boggling because she was being petted. Later on, while I was waiting for the med in the waiting room, I put her in my shirt and was granted with more kisses on the neck and shoulders than I actually get in a week from my all 6 kids. Deep down, I am convinced that following this visit she understood she was to be ok - her attitude improved eventhough it was very good, and she is more active and seems to enjoy having her friends around more. Right now, my Mimi, Chatouille and Picolo are the 3 most bounded - they are always together or close, as if Picolo was the one taking my 2 sickest girls under his wing (no surprise there, actually!). :thumbup:

The struggle and the money definitely was worth it so far - I paid the bill without even looking at the details last night and don't dare do it for now but eventually, I have go back and take a look at how much the heart med will be. I am now hopeful though - Chatouille's breathing still is heavy, but it doesn't look like she is gasping as much and she's only had two treatments so far. I am hopeful the X-ray in two weeks will show a huge improvement in her lungs - who knows, maybe it will even be the last X-ray required, which would be awesome!

And don't worry Fidget, I am not to fight for her at any cost. As I was mentionning to my bf last night, those last two visits were made being very conscious she might not be coming back home with me. And believe me, when the vet showed me on the x-ray what size a normal rat heart should be, I got convinced for a minute she would say there was nothing more we could do but let it run its course - had it come to that, I would have had her PTS right that evening (was about to write "right that minute", but I know I would have spent a good hour saying goodbye before I finally let the vet do it).

All this to say everything is well so far, Chatouille is lying almost in sandwich between the 2 men in the cage - haven't seen her sleep in over a week but I expect to see that little miracle by the beginning of next week.

 

[mamarat]

That's beautiful to picture Chatouille sleeping between her two men. Chatouille picked up on your good energy at the vet's because now you had hope of bringing her back. They seem to know how we are feeling about them. :hugs:

 

[SQ]

I hope the change in meds helps.
Your vet will want to add Atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day to start).
If the meds are helping, you will notice.
Unfortunately, heart meds don't stop the progression of the disease, they just help the symptoms until the heart disease is too bad for the meds to make a difference.
I hope you have more good quality time with her. Conjestive heart failure really sucks.

:hugs:

note: Other vets use enalapril to diagnose heart disease as it is safe to use as a diagnostic tool and not all heart disease will include an enlarged heart.

 

[victoria]

How's she doing Unepuce?

 

[Unepuce]

Hi Victoria, thanks for asking,

She looks like she's back to square one after what seemed to be a bit of improvement in her breathing, but she only started heart meds on Friday night - I'll wait an see. I had to take a later train to work this morning - she wanted nothing to do with her meds. Even 2 shots of peanut butter didn't convince her to eat the whole thing - will buy some Ensure tonight in hopes that a change from baby cereals is gonna help. I took her out of the cage to bring her on our bed last night, and just being picked up (with the stress that comes with it) had she breathing through her mouth, so I brought her right back to the cage. The appartment was hot when I got home yesterday though, so it might have been tough on her. Temperature was back to 22 degrees in the evening... I hope it will remain close to that today so she can get a break...

 

[rodentmama]

I'm fighting the same fight with Spike. He has had a trial with the cardiac meds but they did no good. It took a trial of 5 different antibiotics but finally I found one that works for him but I have to inject it, Gentocin. YUCK! I got it to use in a nebulizer but he doesn't like the noise of the machine. Spike is on prednisone and we reduced his dose so he only takes .5 mg once a day to keep his lung inflammation down. He is on an oral antibiotic called Doxycycline for any secondary infections. Plus he gets so upset he puts himself into a breathing fit so he is on Torbutrol to calm him down....like ratty valium. His last med is Aminophylline which works to open the bronchial passages like if you have an asthma attack. With all of this he is living an ok life. But I do worry he can't run and play anymore and he will turn blue fighting me when I give the oral meds then I feel really bad.

I'm pretty worn out too. I'm a single mom of three teens who aren't easy to raise and I have two jobs and other pets so having to take the time to care for Spike is SO difficult. But I love him and I can't NOT help him.

If you need to commisserate I'm here for you. We just keep on doing what we do....and what Joanne said. A hot bath or an ice cream can set me to rights. Also I must say a good cry when you really have to cry helps clean out the soul.

Hang in.

 

[Unepuce]

Just reading your first paragraph made me like I was going crazy over nothing - then I read the second one. You are way worst off then I am and being just in the place I'm in, I feel for you :hugs:

You are handling way more than I can consider - but then again, I would be in your shoes and I'd most probably be doing the same. I keep saying that if Chatouille does not improve, I will not force her in that misery, but who knows how I will react when I am faced with a vet that finally tells me that maybe I should consider putting her to sleep because it will be costing me a fortune to keep helping her?

I do see some light at the end of the tunnel - Chipie, Mimi and my piggy Mira are finishing off their meds on Thursday (Mimi will stay a week longer on Metacam only, so it's not too bad). Chatouille will then have 2 more weeks to go on antibiotics and one week on the heart medicine before the next x-ray - and the next steps.

I hope Spike is gonna get better - for both your sakes. How old is your little guy?

 

[rodentmama]

My little guy just turned a year. He is one of the "Lucky Lake Echo" rats that my son and I caught out in the woods where someone dumped them so the three of them are VERY dear to my hear. They cost me a pretty penny in gas, renting traps and a lot of lost sleep just to catch them and there was no guarantee we could catch them.

I work at a vet so it makes it a little easier for me but not a whole lot. Spike had an ER visit this month as well as his cardiac xray so the bills are pretty high. If you find that the medicine is helping and you can't afford the second xray just tell the vet that. Let them know you can go in later once you've saved. Most vets are good about that.

Again tonight I was worrying that it was time for the end of Spike. I tried to give him his prednisone and torbutrol mix and he fought so hard he was gasping. I was really freaked out and I hadn't even managed to get any into him so I had to run downstairs and get his aminophylline in a needle to give quickly. That got him calmed down. Then when we had to give him his gentocin, my son wanted to try and just took way too long. I wanted him to learn to give an SQ injection in case I can't. Back to the blue gasping rat. Rest for him is the real trick. If I leave him he usually catches his breath but it scares me every single time. I still have one more med to give him. The doxy by mouth and he hates it. I'm sure I'll have him gasping and blue again.

It is just so hard to decide if these gasping fits warrant the end. He does recover in a few minutes. Having needles and the aminophylline means I can give it too him quickly if he is in crisis. He hardly ate today and I worry that his favorite peanut butter isn't a very nutritious thing to be having all the time. Peanut butter on bread, peanut butter mixed in oatmeal, peanut butter in his ensure. But he loves it and there isn't much I can do more then that.

 

[Unepuce]

Don't I know that panicky feeling. I was exhausted yesterday, and Chatouille had accepted to take in a bit over 2/3 of her medicine in the morning, but refused everything in block last night. No matter the trick, she just would not have it. She too gets in a gasping fit if I try force feeding her - even picking her up is stressful enough for her to start gasping for breath.

I've managed to get the antibiotics down inside her this morning - took 90 minutes of gentile persuasion and breaks for her to accept licking the baby food/meds off my fingures. I still have to try with the heart medicine - she wants none of it. I was in no shape to go to work this morning, so I decided to work from home, but I will have to go tomorrow, and will most likely go brokenhearted 'cause she will have refused to take the meds. I just made an appointement with the vet tomorrow night - will try teach me to inject her medicine instead of feeding it to her. We'll see.

She's puffy most of the time now, back to her happy self at times, but I can see she suffers and I too am wondering which way is the best way for her. I guess I'll have part of the answer tomorrow.

:hugs: to you and Spike - he is way too young to be in such a bad shape. My vet once told me it was bad karma to be born as a rat - isn't she right! They deserve so much better

 

[jorats]

My vet tells me that when a rat decides to stop eating or doesn't want to take their meds, then it's time to consider letting them go.
(hugs)

 

[victoria]

I'm so sorry :hugs:

 

[rodentmama]

Well, I've had a lot that refused meds and I wouldn't let go of them too soon. Poor Spike had a gasping episode last night and I ran him into work. We put him on oxygen and when Dr. B gave him his hydromorph for sedation he didn't really sedate but became normal. For the 5 or 10 minutes I had with him while she was looking at another patient he was breathing easy and cleaning himself and looking normal. But I knew that wouldn't last so we continued with the euthanasia. I was just too afraid that he'd have a gasping fit at home without me and suffer to the end. At least I know he was relaxed and comfortable when the end came. It definately was time for him to run with the others over the bridge.

 

[mamarat]

What our vet (jo's and mine) says is to let them go after we've tried everything and for a long time. Often times I can tell when my sweetie is done and wants to go.

 

[Unepuce]

I'm sorry to read you had to let Spike go. Honestly, I believe this was the right thing to do - poor thing, he was suffering so much. I am sure you must be feeling a great bit of relief now, knowing he does not suffer anymore :hugs:

My Chatouille is happy but still won't take the meds - I pushed the vet visit to tomorrow. No injection for her (only 1 med could be injected, so there's no point), but I will investigate different ways of force feeding meds with an assistant, and will take my Chipie with me since she really didn't have a good day today - she was happy and playful yesterday and dull today, I suspect an otitis (found her on the floor a couple of times these last days), praying I am wrong. Will also take my piggy Mira for an x-ray - I could hear her complain all day Wednesday, so she will most probably go for surgery soon enough.

I can't wait to have Versailles (the double CN) ready to welcome them - with all these ordeals, I haven't had time to work on my liners and stuff - I so believe things will get better when they all are introduced and move in to this bigger, nicer place.

Why are rats so prone to all these problems? Not fair to them, nor to us who love them...

 

[lilspaz68]

With force medicating, you have to be very fast...the meds have to be concentrated so its only a little going in, and it all has to be in and done and swallowed before they start gasping. IF she starts gasping before you are though, you are done. You won't ever be able to get those meds in, as she could aspirate them.