Strange behaviour after Injection

[Scythe]

I injected Remus just over his shoulder(Pinching the skin up and pushing the needle into the tent until I felt resistance give way) with 5ml of subq and 0.05cc each of both baytril and dex. Actually injecting him was a 2 hour long effort that involved a lot of tears and blood(he bites, doesn't like hands) and trial and error in restraining him. During the injection, he would eat all the yogies I could give him -- it was the ONLY way he would NOT resist me(be it by biting, whipping around, screaming, jerking, etc) so I could do it in a way I could not bawl my eyes out in frustration.

Immediately after I pulled the needle out, it was like he suddenly couldn't use his right paw. Interest in yogies, cheerios, anything -- right out the window. Didn't care. Didn't want it, or he'd fumble it around with his left paw and then drop it and just sit there. Right in front of me. Usually Remus wants to be as FAR away from me as possible.

Now that he's back in his cage, I left him alone to relax after the ordeal -- and I came back to everything rearranged. Great big heavy wooden houses are overturned, logs are flipped, and he wont come out of hiding. All I can think of is while I was eating dinner, he had another panic attack(I've only seen one before -- he'll bounce uncontrollably and then shoot around the cage like a blind bat out of hell). I don't know how else to describe the mess that appeared after 10 minutes. Romulus couldn't have done it with his HED.

Usually Remus is pretty calm and chill. You-Dont-Touch-Me-And-I'll-Be-Good kind of guy. Is this normal? It's really freaking me out. I'm petrified now that I've hit something when I did the needle and we've both gone through hell with this already I just want to say it's done and forget it until his next needle(which will probably now be done at the vet because I'm a giant chicken). :sad3:

 

[lilspaz68]

Nope I wouldn't worry too much, yes a panic attack may have ensued because you haven't gotten the knack of how to do it quickly and its over and he's back in his cage to recover. I will come down for the next one (Monday night?) and show you how to do it...it REALLY helps having someone show you (who is not a tech...haha) and now that you have tried you have figured out what to ask, what to look for.

Congrats on not almost-passing out...I had to sit on he floor and gasp like a fish myself my first time. :laugh4:

 

[SQ]

Offtopic:
Wondering why?
.... Ummmm ... as far as I know, baytril isn't suposed to be injected as that can cause health problems in rats.

 

[victoria]

Offtopic:
Wondering why?
.... Ummmm ... as far as I know, baytril isn't suposed to be injected as that can cause health problems in rats.

Baytril isn't supposed to be injected undiluted, I think it's fine it it's watered down with ringer's lactate solution.

 

[Scythe]

He is still acting odd... No hammocks, doesn't want food. Just wants to sit in the back corner of the CN curled up and not move. He's been there since I came back from dinner. He slinks out for a drink and then slides back, very low to the ground.

SQ:
Shelagh would probably have a better answer than I would, I tend to just trust Dr.Munn with whatever he suggests and only question what I've heard, which.. wasn't anything about Baytril in regards to injections, I didn't know it causes health problems in rats, so I wouldn't have asked. Do you have an article/page where it says this? I could probably e-mail Dr.Munn and ask.

Added to Vic:
It's diluted with a sodium chloride solution.

 

[SQ]

If Dr Munn says it is ok, then I'm sure it is.
He is highly regarded as a great vet for rats.
(But I will see if that info is on the internet.)

========================================================
Edit: info on the internet:
Baytril burns and baytril causes scabs/wounds, site has pictures of baytril burns
http://www.rathealth.co.uk/articles/baytril.html

It is not recommended that Baytril be injected - some rats can develop painful blistering at the injection site, resulting in a large hard scab which is often pulled off, leaving an open wound. Baldness can occur at the injection site though the wound will heal and the fur will grow back eventually.

The Rat Guide does say baytril needs to be diluted if injected
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_ ... aytril.php

Because enrofloxacin may cause skin ulceration at the injection site, when giving SQ, it is recommended to dilute the injectable solution with NaCl or LRS.

............................
From what I could find, it seems that the injection of baytril is not encouraged, and when baytril is injected, it needs to be diluted quite a bit.
======================================

So ... thanks, another new thing I learned today :thumbup:

 

[Scythe]

If Dr Munn says it is ok, then I'm sure it is.
He is suposed to be a great vet for rats.
(But I will see if that info is on the internet.)

Yeah, if he says it's ok I'm sure it is.. but I wonder what makes a difference between diluted vrs undiluted when it comes to baytril injections. That's interesting.

 

[crumbilina]

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_ ... aytril.php

"Because enrofloxacin may cause skin ulceration at the injection site, when giving SQ, it is recommended to dilute the injectable solution with NaCl or LRS"

Im pretty sure it is just really caustic when it isn't diluted, but you diluted it so there shouldn't be a problem.

I hope he is acting better soon... I'm sorry I can't give you any advice. Maybe he is just tired from the ordeal?

ETA: there are references to journal articles on rat guide too if your interested in reading more.

 

[lilspaz68]

I just got back from my weekend at my moms...how is he doing now?

 

[Scythe]

The injection I did wasn't anywhere near as helpful for him as the one at the vet... He's been making awful noises everday since. Usually his breathing will be quiet for a couple days, then start up again when he needs the next shot...

 

[Godmother]

Just to be safe, and to save yourself another 2-hr ordeal, could you give the Baytril orally from now on? I remember one of my rats had a Baytril injection (wasn't my usual vet) and she shrieked like I've never heard a rat shriek before or since. She didn't have the aftereffects that your rat did, but the experience made me wary of Baytril injections.

 

[Joanne]

You can give injectable Baytril orally. That's what I use.

 

[Scythe]

But he still has to have the injection for Dexamethasone anyway.. They both go into the same syringe.

 

[Scythe]

Tonight was a much faster ordeal... A couple false starts where I did make him bleed on accident, but then we had A Moment where he cuddled into my leg, hid his face and enjoyed a long massage where I tugged on his skin all over his body(he never even lets me touch hm)... and to my surprise... His horrendous breathing stopped while he got his massage. And this is the rat that HATES hands...

After that, I handed him his pablum dish and he chowed down while I did the injection. He wasn't too pleased once I got to the halfway mark(of 10ml of liquid), and started to spin in circles like a mad man and shoot out stress poops, but once it was over he went and sulked and hid his face again.

Now he is in his cage trying to shake the 'liquid' off his back. :roll:

 

[lilspaz68]

Ash, IF you don't think he's dehydrated, only use 3 ml's of the saline, it will be faster to get into him and he may not protest as much. I only use 10 ml's IF the rat is sick and dehydrated, but if he's not there's no point and a lot of rats will protest after 5 ml's of fluids.

 

[SQ]

He wasn't too pleased once I got to the halfway mark(of 10ml of liquid), and started to spin in circles like a mad man and shoot out stress poops, but once it was over he went and sulked and hid his face again.

Why not give him the injectable baytril orally and thus decreasing the amount being injected.
Many of us give injectable baytril orally ...
I sweeten it and mix it up and my rats think it is a wonderful treat.

 

[Scythe]

Munn said the fluids will help his lungs too though... x_x

I don't think he'll be getting anymore medication anyways.. according to munn, this is the only thing we havent tried and it's not working anymore.

 

[SQ]

:sad3:
I am so sorry ...

 

[lilspaz68]

Oh I am very sorry Ashley Give him a body rub for me

 

[Scythe]

His breathing doesn't interfere with anything he does, so in 3 days or so I'll probably put him back on the metacam and theophylline and see what happens... He's old and I got him at 2-ish from living in a tank, so maybe he's just got scars in his lungs?