Sophie's tumour burst... RIP 04/08 - some necropsy results

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victoria

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
4,614
Location
Montreal, QC
As some of you know, one of my girls Sophie has many tumours. Most are small(ish) but there's one on her abdomen that has always caused me concern. It started as a small bump about a centimetre away from her urethrae and has spread, missing her urethrae but going past it all the way to the base of her tail so it looks like she's a he on one side. It's always been a dark purple/blue colour so we knew there was blood supply but last week I notice it was really blue at the base of her tail. She's been on Metacam for 2 weeks because she was in pain but she doesn't always take it, like this morning. I just went to try to give it to her again and found her bruxing and I noticed the lump was much smaller at the base and there's dried blood, but she's not bleeding anymore. I don't know if I should try to give her Metacam again or not because of the bleeding. I have an appointment at 4 but I'm wondering what to expect. Is this a one time thing to release pressure or is it more serious?
 
Just my 2 cents worth, our vet says that Metacam isn't a big bleeding risk - in her words, "After all, we give it immediately following surgery." But that is your call. =/
 
I wouldn't give the metacam... just because they warn you to stay away from those kinds of meds (specifically Advil) before any sort of surgery or produce that might cause an uncontrolled bleeding issue. Like before any scopes, just incase they knick something.
With surgery, the bleeding is more controlled, and sewn back together.
 
Back from the vet and got a closer look at everything while I was there. The tumour is now a fifth it's original size because all the blood that had pooled around it is gone now. Sophie had actually not stopped bleeding like I thought originally, because there were blood smears on the baby blanket in the carrier but the vet said she lost no fresh blood, just the necrotic blood that had settled around the tumour the last couple of months. The vet was wondering if the tumour itself had come out (I didn't know that could happen) but it didn't and it's attached to her genitalia and anus, although it's looks much smaller than it did yesterday. There's also some nerve/neurological damage because the toes on the foot closest to the bleed are paralyzed.

The biggest concern is that she has a big hole at the base of her tail that I have to keep clean so it can abscess and not heal (and stop bleeding). Hydrotherapy, followed by antiseptic and a topical treatment twice a day are not going to be fun. The vet said it was fine to continue with Metacam, but Sophie won't take it, although she no longer seems to be in pain and is eating and drinking. No antibiotics because she's afraid of side effects... I really hope no infection develops. She's back in the cage with her buddies, I'm going to leave her be until later tonight before I do the hydrotherapy and sanitize the cage to reduce the risk of infection.
 
side effects? Has she shown that problem before to antibiotics?

Use the Advil...I cannot get metacam into Twiggy, but he gobbles up the Advil, its better than nothing :)

I am glad that the blood has released but you have a long road ahead of both of you, especially with keeping things clean ((hugs))
 
No, she doesn't have a history of side effects, but this vet is very cautious. My regular vet wasn't in today. I'll keep an eye on her, if I start to get worried, I'll call in and ask for abs. I did ask today but I knew it was going to be a losing battle so I left it. She also felt that euthanasia was the best option because no matter what, she will still have the tumours (she emphasized surgery wasn't an option but I decided that it was too risky months ago so it was pointless) and they will eventually kill her, but to me she's still happy and the tumours (if they stop bleeding) are not impacting her ability to live like Amy's tumour is. I think it's at least worth a try, I know I am likely down to weeks with both Sophie and Amy and discussed it with my husband last night.
 
Ahh I see..not your regular vet. Yes only you know how much your girls love their daily life and yes tumors are fatal but that doesn't mean we have to give up right away.
 
There is one antibiotic, my vet has mentioned but I cannot remember the name of it for the LIFE of me, that makes rats crazy. And sometimes, the crazy doesn't go away after they are taken off the med. But its not one I ever hear mentioned here(or I'd remember the name). So they don't use it anymore. But there are dozens of other antibiotics, many of which are common to rats and list no or few side effects. That's silly.
 
That's weird about the abs and side effects, especially since the rat is pretty much terminal anyway.
I'm sure Sophie appreciates you fighting the good fight along with her. ((hugs))
 
Poor Victoria and Sophie... I so hope she gets better and give you another month or two. Losing a rat is heartbreaking, losing 2 at a time just tears you apart. You're such a good Mom... I will be thinking of the three of you :hugs:

Which vet did you see? Dr Beaulieu or Dr Saulnier? What I read sounds like Dr Beaulieu... sounds like her trying to protect her patient's owners when she feels a battle is coming to an end.
 
You're right Nancy, I saw Dr. Beaulieu. She's a good doctor, but so over cautious. I know she's trying to protect me, but I know what's coming and I'd rather help her for as long as I can - if not I wouldn't have taken her to the vet so many times in the last few months. She's doing really well this morning, I think the bleed reduced the pressure and she's no longer in pain. When I cleaned and sanitized the cage last night I found a lot of small, odd shaped poos and I think they were hers. I suspect the tumour was putting a lot of pressure on her anus and/or rectum and perhaps that's why it bust. I'm going to pick up Advil but I don't think she needs it anymore so I won't give it unless I see she needs it. That's a good thing not only because she's not in pain but because NSAIDs sometimes hide the signs of infection and I want to keep a close eye on her for any symptoms.
 
Hi Victoria, I'm just catching up with forum postings and saw this thread today. It sounds like your Sophie is experiencing the same kind of thing my Lollipop is. Lollipop also has a tumor near her anus and it has burst three times since last November. Each time it burst (blood everywhere) then shrunk, and then slowly over time, began to fill with blood again. So, I just wanted to mention it.. 'case based on this experience, it seems it's possible that Sophie could recover from the burst tumor and still have more time... I mean I don't know much about this stuff, really, but I thought I'd mention it..

Wishing you and Sophie the very best..
 
I was thinking this week that I would update to tell everyone how well Sophie's doing, then this afternoon I popped my head in the CN to say goodbye to the rats when I was leaving for the farmer's market and I discovered the tumour had burst again.

I recently bought them an Oxbow Timothy Tunnel that they LOVE. I wasn't intending to put it in the cage but more than once I had to fight with a rat to come out and go back to the cage so it ended up in the cage and is now the spot to sleep. I noticed blood stains on the blanket I use to line it and knew what happened right away. I shooed the rats I could out of it and I picked it up with the two remaining rats in it and coaxed Sophie out to have a look.

Unlike the first time when Sophie was clearly in pain, this time she couldn't understand what the fuss was about. Last night I noticed the blood around the tumour was creating pressure again - her poos were flat on one side (like they were for the weeks leading up to the first burst) and the area was hardening and very blue like the last time. This leak is from the same hole as the first time (it was very close to completely healing - a small cut about 2mm long) and not nearly as messy, although it looks like she may have lost more blood, or at least lost it faster than before. I cleaned the small amount of blood on her fur and tail with a moist cotton ball, patted her dry, changed the blanket in the tunnel and put her back. It was very close to closing time at the vet and there was no way we would make it across town in time, so I didn't even bother to call - I doubt they could have done anything anyway. If anything urgent comes up before Monday, we'll go to the emergency clinic at the faculty but I don't think anything will.

The last few weeks since the first burst have been full of ups and downs. Before the first burst, Sophie was showing signs of pain and was on Metacam. After the burst she seemed to be in more pain initially, but after a few days she stopped needing any Metacam (or Advil, since I did not want to fight with her everyday and try to give her meds and risk reopening the wound) at all. She did start wheezing in her sleep a few days after my last update so she was put on Batryl for two weeks, which got rid of the wheezing right away and she finished this week.

Hydrotherapy went a lot better and worse than expected - she did not mind it (a huge surprise) but she would reopen the wound grooming after each time I cleaned it. I tried just antiseptic and ointment (as per the vet) but I got the same results, so I just left it. (Because the first time this happened there was so much dried blood, I never knew how big the hole was. I didn't want to clean off the blood - about the size of a dime - and reopen the wound, so I just waited until she groomed it off on her own.) I know the vet wanted me to do the hydrotherapy to increase blood flow to the area and encourage healing but I figured since she was grooming regularly it would be fine. When she got a fair amount of the blood cleared off and I was satisfied there was some sort of scab, I put some antiseptic followed by the topical ointment just to speed healing along.

Sophie seems so much happier lately, her eyes are so much brighter too, but she has slowed down a lot. She spends most of the day sleeping deeply. I have to nudge her awake when I feed them or give treats so she doesn't miss out on the good stuff. Once she's awake and knows there's food, she busts a move over to the bowl. She manages to get around very well despite all her lumps, gets into hammocks I never thought would be accessible to her, although I see one of her lumps is getting in the way of one of her hind legs. She comes out for playtime but only to make her way over to us and to sleep beside us or at our feet.

She hasn't lost any weight but she feels a bit skinnier. This concerns me because I worry that much of her energy is going to feed the tumours and she is not getting enough. As it is, her cage mates (except for Monty) are packing on the pounds thanks to the supplementing I've been doing. It's been mostly soaked blocks with a little bit of vegetable baby food and/or cooked whole grains, healthy cereal (puffed kamut, millet, rice, etc.) and veggies and fruit a couple times a week (bananas, apples, blueberries). A few times a month they will also get a special treat like cooked egg, almonds, or potatoes. They also get Danactive (I hate it's sweetened but have found it to be the most effective with antibiotic associated diarrhea), Booster, Greens + (I usually mix it in oatmeal and it also has probiotic strains and they love it), Melatonin (only Sophie, whenever she is cooperative), and fish oil because Monty is showing the early signs of HED. Between the Danactive and baby food I think they are getting too many readily available sugars and for two of my other girls with benign tumours it seems that they are growing faster (in addition to the weight gain) but I'm torn on what is best. If I take Sophie out to feed her individually, she will not have the freedom to eat whenever she wants but I also do not what to do harm the other rats. She has not been eating blocks since the end of January - I believe in part because one of her tumours makes it hard for her to hold them and they are too hard for her - but I have caught her a few times recently gnawing at them, if she finds a way to prop them up somewhere.

What does concern me is the close proximity of the two bursts. I know Chris said Lollipop had three busts over a 4-5 month period but there wasn't even a three week buffer here. I worry she is also using a lot of energy to produce the blood that accumulates around the lump that is replaced after each loss. I bought spinach, broccoli, and kale today and steamed some up for them to try to replace some of the lost nutrients and I think I will give Sophie some cooked egg tomorrow for the extra protein and calcium. I really hope I'm not missing anything. We have Ensure at home but I don't like the idea of giving it regularly because of the sugar and I hate the idea of Glucerna and it's artificial sweeteners more, so I'd like to avoid both of those if possible.

At playtime tonight she acted as though nothing had happened, so that's a plus. She looks a bit like a rat with PT trying to move around the hardwood floors :sad3: but she takes it all in stride. Manages to climb into the litter boxes and all. This week was Annabelle's 2nd birthday and I remember thinking in January when Sophie had her stroke that I should prepare myself for the distinct possibility she wouldn't be with us to celebrate it. I am very grateful for every day we have because I truly believe it's borrowed time.

ETA: Ugh. Finished typing and posting this and I went to say goodnight to everyone. Sophie hopped up the ramp to come say hi and then she started leaking blood. (It was actually pouring out :cry: ) I held her with a tissue against the "hole" for a few minutes (she was happy chilling in my palm, sort of like a human hammock) and then put her back in the cage. There was a small puddle of blood on the liner that I think I managed to wipe up pretty well and there was no blood in the hammock she was sleeping just before I said hello, so I think she must have opened it hopping (she can't really walk up the ramps properly anymore - 3 tumours are in the way plus her foot is partially paralyzed) up the ramps. I'm wondering if I should put her in a different cage... I think she would be so sad away from the other girls, even with Monty for company. Maybe I can find an enormous bunny/GP cage large enough for 6 rats to borrow.
 
Hi Victoria.. so sorry to hear Sophie's tumor burst again. It can be SO unnerving when this happens! But it's good she didn't seem to be terribly bothered by it this time.

The last tumor burst my Lollipop had, there were smaller bits of blood leaking for just over a week still. She was on doxy for life, so we weren't concerned about infection and we were giving her infant formula, so she also got iron, assuming she'd need that due to blood loss. As to why the blood spotting for so long, we weren't 100% sure, and kinda assumed that not all the blood had drained when the tumor burst, or that the hole was still open, so any new blood manufactured wasn't collecting yet, but still draining.

I think you're an awesome rat mommy! It sounds like you're doing everything possible for Sophie and her rattie friends.

How are her poos now that the tumor has burst again?
 

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