Red urine

[TTstinger]

YOU might not eat meat, but for your rats it's part of their necessary diet. In the same way that you couldn't get any other omnivorous or carnivorous animal to stop eating meat, your rats shouldn't have to either.

Maybe look into a local free-range organic chicken farm to buy some meat for your rats

Can I ask, what you are basing this on? Nutritionally speaking, do you understand how animals (that including humans) bodies process food? See I study nutrition daily I understand how the body (that including humans and animals) processes food. Everything you said is to a large degree wrong, let me explain. There is nothing that meat provides any animal that cannot be found amongst plants NOTHING..... Animals such as lion have evolved as meat eater out of necessity(that being food) and instinct, now a days mainly instinct.
Animals (including humans) use amino acids i.e complex proteins, water and minerals as the building blocks for every part of our bodies. First thing you need to understand about nutrition (this where You learn something new) Animals (including humans) do much better without proteins and getting straight to the amino acids that make-up the protein, here is why.
When a protein enters the body immediately begins using energy to break the proteins down into the amino acids that make up the protein so the body can them use them to build tissue and all the other items needed for the body to function.
There are essential nutrients any physical body needs. Nonessential nutrients are manufactured in the body and do not need to be obtained from food. Examples include cholesterol, a fat like substance present in all animal cells. Essential nutrients must be obtained from food sources, because the body either does not produce them or produces them in amounts too small to maintain growth and health. Essential nutrients include water, carbohydrates, proteins/amino acids, fats, vitamins, and minerals. And guess what all of this can be found in plants, ALL... When any animal eats meat they are eating what that animal ate. Example lion eats antelope that antelope would not have existed without plants. The nutrient just transfer. So no animal has to eat meat to survive meat consumption was born out of lazyness that is fact.

More to come, have to go do somoe stuff at this moment.

 

[ryelle]

lol meat consumption wasn't born out of laziness.

It takes more vegetation to gain the nutritional requirements needed than it does for meat. This is why herbivores generally spend 80% of their day eating. The intake they need to meet what they need to survive is higher. Lions eat meat, and yes, they do get some nutrition from the animals that they eat, but if they were to eat grass/vegetation then they too would have to graze for hours per day and they wouldn't be on the top of the food chain because they simply wouldn't be able to produce the energy that they need to run and hunt and protect themselves. They also aren't capable of digesting a vegetation diet. Cats and Dogs are carnivores, a poor diet for them will contain Corn. Their bodies wern't designed to digest that stuff.

Go research Hindgut and foregut fermentation.

 

[Cigar]

First.. talking about cats (house or wild) is silly in my opinion. At the very least, a cats diet should be comprised of 25% protein and I'm sure wild cats (as hunters) need a larger intake. In fact, an inadequate amount of protein in a cat can cause liver and heart problems, among others.

Sunflowers, nuts, and dried corn are fatty fillers that have been linked to skin ailments and other illnesses in rats. Fat contributes to heart problems. Plant matter, although nutritious and a source of proteins, is actually harder to digest than meat. I look at it as eating something heavy that you have to ingest alot of to maintain your energy; it can make you quite sleepy. Rats don't have the enzyme necessary to digest cellulose in plants like humans do but there is a bacteria in the cecum that helps. This doesn't mean we should feed our rats as cows or elephants.

Rats are scavengers, meaning animals of opportunity, (omnivorous) and their diet should be based on those facts. Sugars (fruits and fat (protein) should always be kept to a minimum.

 

[TTstinger]

bring on the opinions :stickpoke:

 

[henry's_mum]

Perhaps we should stick to discussing RAT diets?
There was a thread on this exact topic, and it was locked, lets not start this again please.

 

[ryelle]

Some info for you from the writer of the book i recommended earlier:

http://www.shunamiterats.co.uk/diet.shtml


About supplements etc:
http://www.shunamiterats.co.uk/principlesdiet.shtml


The Shunamite mix (i prefer not to use this, because you get selective feeding, but a lot of people prefer this over in the UK)
http://www.shunamiterats.co.uk/shunamite.shtml you still have to use dog biscuits though. A medium sized bag lasts a long time and only costs a couple of quid

 

[LA]

Please let us know how your vet visit goes and what was recommended. That's what's key in this thread.

I had two girls with a UTI. The one was sulky about it (she was my sulky girl afterall), but it took me a bit to figure out who had it because she hid it well. The second got it and I knew right away because she continually licked herself. I had them on Clavamox and Baytril (with acidophillus to help promote good bacteria) and it cleared up nicely. For whatever reason I would say that something is up in the digestive (stomach, intestine, etc) if it's affecting both poo and urine.

Good Luck!

 

[Avatar]

I'm just going to poke my nose in here and let you now that different animals an not have different things in their diets, and do require other things. I am(was) personally a chinchilla owner, and the cold hard fact for them is that too much sugar can kill them. They need a certain amount of nutrients in their diets which can not be substituted by other things. Anything with any real level of sugar in it could kill one from bloat.

It all has to do with the digestive tract. Certainly a rat may be able to get all of it nutrients from other foods, but that does not mean its body has the proper ability to digest, or make use of the nutrients in that way. Thus, meat tends to be the best option for protein.

Not trying to attack or offend, but thought I'd use the knowledge I do have to enlighten~

 

[minnow]

If you study *animal* nutrition, you would know that different animals have different nutritional needs, and that it has to do with their evolved digestive tracts not anthropomorphic terms like 'laziness'. There are obligate carnivores, like cats, who will die horribly if they don't have meat in their diet. There are pure herbivores that need the complex carbohydrate chains in fiber, and will die if given too much starch or sugar. Then there are the in-betweens, like us, bears, and rats. Opportunistic feeders. The vast majority of opportunistic feeders do best with a wide variety of food (which you are not providing for your rats according to your description) including low to moderate cellulose vegetable matter, limited fruits, and meat. If you know how to supplement, you can often substitute soy or carefully balanced combined plant proteins for the meat, but you cannot do this with all omnivores, and you're not doing this with your rats' current diet.

 

[Fidget]

Wow, you sound like a real good mom to be so aware of each kid's times & color & consistency of 'offerings'.
You know how some humans have some weird rare things that aren't diagnosed except thru years of compaints and multiple tests? You have to think our odd kids have them too, and no way are they gonna get diagnosed.
We can guess when they need antibiotics, but problems out of the mainstream? Even if you guess it right try to convince a vet to give you some non-standard drug.
I don't know whether to hope your boy has something that predelicts him for choking or hope it's a respiratory thing.
Either way he surely has a mom that is so aware of whats going on with him physically, emotionally & socially. He's got it made emotionally. I hope he sticks around to enjoy the world you have to offer him.

 

[LA]

Ok not to start something. I don't want this to get into a vegetarian/non vegetarian arguement. However, I rarely feed my girls meat of any sort. I have on rare occasion given them low sodium salmon, and did give one of them turkey this past thanksgiving (to help her eat some food as she was having teeth issues) but she didn't touch it. I feed Harlan Teklad 2014 TT I don't think you can get that in the UK however. I read the ingredients and there is no meat of any sort in this food. So basically my girls don't eat meat at all. My girls are exceptionally healthy with beautiful shiny, soft coats.

So to agree with you, I don't feed meat to my rats.

Edit to add:
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not telling anyone not to feed meat, I'm just saying that my girls don't get any and they are in fact healthy.

 

[SQ]

Harlan Tech 2014 rat lab block does not contain animal protien

Oxbow Regan rat lab block does contain fish meal

Either would meet your requirments.

Edit; ooops, just noticed you are in England. Don't know if these or similar are available there.
Members in England might have some ideas.

 

[ryelle]

we can't get either of them in the UK.

The blocks that i know of in the UK contain 'Chicken Meal', its one of the first ingredients. We don't have much of a variety

I just want to state that i originally asked what food was fed to the rats so that we could eliminate it as a problem do with the funky poop (i know that it would have been brought up anyways). I know that if a rat eats a lot of food thats a specific colour then they tend to poop that colour, but that obviously isn't the case here

 

[minnow]

So, if one wants to feed vegan in the UK, it looks like a decent starting point might be a healthy vegan human diet, being careful to avoid foods that are OK for humans but toxic to rats.

So, TTstinger, it may be advisable to take a look at the forbidden foods list, and keeping that in mind, share a small portion of your own meals with your rats.

Have your darlings seen their vet yet? Any word on what treatment they're getting for the red urine?

 

[ryelle]

I am wondering if there is a way to supplement the Shunamite diet so that you don't have to use dog kibble. Maybe something from the health store? you would have to buy copper supplement too though because mixes get it mostly from dog feed