non-surgical treatments for tumors

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Oops, How did I miss this... sorry I haven't responded sooner.

Anything hormonal can cause hair to fall out. With my dog, it was the pituitary tumour that did that for him. Ferrets can get this as well. Remember your vet is new at this with rats so he may not know everything and he will learn with this procedure as well and hopefully will do more in the future. I'm definitely going to talk to my vet about this should one of ours ever get a tumour and they are not in the best of shape.
 
I also missed the updates... sorry for the late reply Chris.

I suppose the implants can be done without shaving, I suspect my vet does it to be more precise. As for the Isoflourane, all of the girls were groggy after the procedure, some more than others. The waiting area at my vet's is out of ear shot of the procedure area but I doubt very much that my girls squeaked or were in discomfort during the procedures.

I did not notice any hair growth issues with any of the girls, even Sophie who had surgery twice after the implant.

As for the effects, that's a really hard question to answer. From reading about the implants, the recipient does not become sterile until 3 or 4 weeks after the procedure so she would not see any benefits until then. With Ava, whose lump was HUGE but felt like a water balloon, it's almost unnoticeable now. I rarely ever feel it. Sophie, whose original lump started growing and we had what we thought was another tumor pop up (it turned out to be a bunch of abscesses) had the two removed and the original lump had branched out (not sure if this is the best way to describe it) and was a little tougher for my vet to remove than it would have been when we first found it. BUT it was always an odd lump, and I never had the impression it would be easy to remove and I remember asking my vet about the risk of the tumors having more blood supply as time went on and he said that isn't usually the case with mammary tumors in rats. Butterscotch's tumor also started to grow (albeit very slowly) and I had it removed, although I'm now wondering whether I should have bothered as it may have never grown big enough to bother her. Unfortunately, we never know what will happen and I am a little over paranoid sometimes (most of the time).

How big is the tumor? How much has it grown? Where is it? I have had some pretty big tumors removed in the past and everything went well. Maybe Jo has some more experience in the area and can tell you when it's too late. I think it's probably worth waiting but I know it's hard to do that when it's your rat.
 
I've had a rat with a tumor almost the same size as he was removed, so really if the vet is ok with it then I'd say it's never too late.
 
victoria said:
I also missed the updates... sorry for the late reply Chris.

Oh no! I missed this update too... so sorry for my late response!

victoria said:
the recipient does not become sterile until 3 or 4 weeks after the procedure so she would not see any benefits until then....I remember asking my vet about the risk of the tumors having more blood supply as time went on and he said that isn't usually the case with mammary tumors in rats. ... Unfortunately, we never know what will happen and I am a little over paranoid sometimes (most of the time).

Ahhh. thanks for that info about taking 3-4 weeks to kick in. That makes more sense to me now, why we'd have to wait four weeks. I'm somewhat relieved also to hear about blood supply NOT being taken up by mammary tumors. So I'm starting to feel maybe we could have more time. But yes, we never do know, and I'm also paranoid about these things. In fact, I'd have just had the tumor removed asap if it hadn't been that Lollipop had barely just recovered from a tumor removal surgery. It was too soon.

victoria said:
How big is the tumor? How much has it grown? Where is it? I have had some pretty big tumors removed in the past and everything went well. Maybe Jo has some more experience in the area and can tell you when it's too late. I think it's probably worth waiting but I know it's hard to do that when it's your rat.

The tumor is located at her lower left teat. When it first appeared it seemed to be center, but has been growing more to the left. It used to be squooshy, but in the last few days or so, seems to be more firm. It is growing and I'd estimate it is still smaller than a golf ball, but not by a lot.

The size concerned me because my girl had the tumor for three weeks almost by the time she got the implant. So I am hoping the tumor will not grow too quickly while we're waiting for the implant to "kick in". As I understand it, there are no special accomodations required due to the implant, should my girl have to have the tumor surgically removed. So if it comes to that, I will probably want to bring her back to our regular/original vet who charges a much more reasonable price.

Thanks for your response and all your support. It helps a lot.
 
Here's an update. It's now one week since the implant. Lollipop's tumor is definitely still growing.

I'm still watching, but am pondering that we may have to go the surgery route again since it takes 3-4 weeks for the effects of the implant to kick in, and the tumor has grown quite a bit since it was first discovered August 14th. For today, I am not deciding, but still just watching and considering.

It has now been three months since her last surgery. Does that sound like enough time before having another surgery?

For the record, Lollipop has also been taking Vetamino for 4 weeks, as well as the herbal treatment for 2 weeks. It's probably appropriate to conclude at least the Vetamino is not doing the trick. But I'm told it won't hurt her, and should help strengthen her immune system, so I will continue it for now anyway.
 
How is Lollipop otherwise. There was some concern with her after her surgery. Do you feel she's totally recovered? 3 months sounds about right if she's in top health. How big is the tumour now? Are you sure you can't wait the 3 to 4 weeks?
 
jorats said:
How is Lollipop otherwise. There was some concern with her after her surgery. Do you feel she's totally recovered? 3 months sounds about right if she's in top health. How big is the tumour now? Are you sure you can't wait the 3 to 4 weeks?

Her health seems okay other than two things: the tumor, and that she has trouble climbing. I don't think they're related.

The tumour continues to grow. It's difficult to describe the size. I think maybe uploading a picture will help describe the size some. I will try to get that done tonight.

I think she will be okay to wait this week. I'm hoping the full four weeks. I'm just concerned that surgery will jeopardize her life if I wait too long. (of course, I don't want to do it too soon either, because maybe she will respond to treatment and not need it... d'oh!) This waiting it out stuff is for the birds!
 
Finally I have a picture. I'd say the tumor is about the size of a golf ball --maybe just a bit bigger. Tomorrow is two weeks since she got the implant. I'm having a hard time getting my head around what it means to take 3-4 weeks for the implant to kick in, as I see her tumor continue growing in the meantime.



 
Her hind end weakness seems to come and go.
The tumor is not effecting her mobility at this point. Actually, I think it bothers me to see it more than it bothers her.
 
ChrisK said:
Actually, I think it bothers me to see it more than it bothers her.

That is so true!!! We are more bothered by our rat's handicap then they are. They adapt easily with whatever capabilities they have left.
We are the ones feeling bad for them but we shouldn't we should be proud for their ability to overcome these hindrances.
 
I'd give the implant a little more time before I took any action. Though the tumour is upsetting to see, it shouldn't be hindering her movement too much and she looks good in general :)
 
I just thought I'd update this post, should someone refer to it in the future.
We waited the full four weeks for the implant to kick in, but the tumor continued to grow. We took Lollipop in for surgery, and by then, the vet found also another small tumor had sprouted up. He removed both tumors. The surgery went well, and Lollipop had her staples removed 10 days later. Tomorrow will be two weeks since the surgery, and she is better than ever in many ways. I still am seeing her have issue occasionally with getting up to her (low level) shelf.

So while the implant did not work in her case, I'm very very glad we waited to have surgery, because another lump popped up, and both were removed in one surgery.

The day after Lollipop's staples were removed, I was examining Skittles because she'd had a small lump which we think is scared tissue, but I keep an eye on it. That's when I found Skittles now had a new, larger sized lump. Thankfully, that was Saturday, I called the vet immediately, and got an appointment for today (two days later). Skittles and I have just now returned from the vet, and she now also has the implant. I know it didn't seem to work for Lollipop, but I am hoping that it will work for Skittles.

The good news for me in all this, if there is any, is that I've grown used to this new norm -- dealing with tumors in my lovely girlies. What I mean is, I'm less freaked out about it, and more able to just be there with them now. Let's hope that Skittles will respond to the implant. I will update again after the four week period has past, for those who may be interested.

And by the way... the vet who did the procedure for me .. well, Lollipop was his first time doing this on a rat, and I was more than uncomfortable about the way things went. However, the way he worked on Skittles today was exactly the way I'd expected it should be, and I left the office feeling that the vet had learned lessons and improved in the process. I was happy with the way he handled everything.
 
That's the thing with girls... So many tumors, which is why I have all my girls spayed. I haven't dealt with a tumour in such a long time.
But I do like the idea of the implants if they work. Maybe Victoria can give us an update on how it's working for her girls.
 
As of last Thursday, all of my girls have implants. Here's a quick run down of each one individually:

Sophie was the first to get the implant (ironically she was the first I was going to have spayed because she was so chubby and thus more likely to get a lump) back in May (at 19 months) for a small lump in her armpit. At first I thought it was shrinking, but then I realized it was sometimes easier to feel than others because of Sophie's... erm... baby fat. The tumour grew slowly, and then one day I felt a small hard lump on her collarbone. I didn't do anything right away, hoping it was an abscess, but it continued to grow despite the fact she was on Doxy and Batryl for the sniffles. Being the worry wart that I am, we went to the vet and scheduled a removal for both, although the original one had branched out a bit and took too long to remove, so it was the only one removed in July. Six weeks later, with the lump on the collar bone still growing, I had her scheduled for surgery again, with her buddy Butterscotch (later learned that was not the best plan) but when the vet cut into her, he discovered it was an abscess (that continued to grow despite 2 months of antibiotics). She recovered really well from both procedures and has no other lumps to date (the is an enlarged lymph-node in her other armpit, but it has stayed unchanged for months now) and is more active and outgoing than ever.

Butterscotch's lump popped up less than two weeks after Sophie's, also in her armpit. She was approximately 17-18 months) It stayed the same for three months after the implant, but after Sophie's first surgery it started to grow slowly so I opted to have it removed when Sophie had her abscess *sigh* removed. Thinking back now, that was more of an emotional response on my part, it probably wasn't necessary, but she's fully recovered now (has some scar tissue because Sophie chewed on her sutures in post-op recovery) and has no other lumps either.

Both Butterscotch's and Sophie's tumours were no bigger than a seedless grape.

Ava's implant was done sometime in June (very rough age estimate was 18 months) , after I found a huge bubble (it was not an abscess, but a really big, squishy lump) on her collarbone/ribcage area. That lump has shrunk to an almost unnoticeable size, still very loosely packed and squishy, and she also has no other lumps that I know of... although she really doesn't like when I try to check her over. I was hoping that the implant would calm her down, that maybe the cause of some of her aggression was hormones, but that doesn't seem to have happened.

Annabelle, the youngest in my cage (19 months), would have been surgically spayed already as she is turning out to be quite the squish, but she has been on antibiotics for months, and can't quite finish kicking her respiratory infection so no surgery for her. For a week I kept on thinking I saw a bump on her side, but could not find the lump right away. When I did find it last week I booked her for an implant and brought Oreo along in hopes I could convince the vet to get her implanted as well before she developed a lump. Annabelle's lump is about the size of a lima bean and is halfway between the bottom of her rib cage and her hips. It reminds me of Lizzie's tumour, that was attached to her abdominal wall. She hasn't even finished growing her hair back, but I am pretty hopeful her's will be as successful as the others' were.

Oreo got implanted along with Annabelle as this vet didn't have an issue doing the procedure as a prophylactic, so hopefully she won't develop a tumour at all. She is almost 21 months old now (Butterscotch's sister) and still as skinny as ever so that she can still squeeze under my closet door.

As an aside, there was another female in this colony whom I lost to a suspected pituitary tumour in August. Grace was Sophie's sister (we think) and was fairly healthy save for mild sniffles most of her life until she started acting off. I tried pain meds to see if that was the cause of her personality change, but when they didn't help (she was on lifetime abs) we went to the vet and ruled out heart disease so we put her on Prednisone to see if it was neurological. The Pred did help for about a week, but Grace just gave up one day and we had to say goodbye. Grace was intact and did not have an implant, and in a check-up 2 days before she passed we found a lump about a centimetre above her vaginal opening which we also suspect was a mammary tumour.

We didn't do anything about Grace's lump as we knew she did not have much time left, but that makes 5/6 (female) rats in my current colony that have developed mammary tumours before the age of 20 months and none of the ones who were implanted have developed new ones. I'll have a better idea of how effective they are as more time goes on, but despite the cost, the more time that passes, the more I am inclined to think that implants are often a better alternative to surgery. In my experience, the immune systems of rats who have surgery never recover to quite 100% and that can influence their lifespan. That being said, my vet did add a little tidbit to his pre-procedure "These are the Risks" speech about the possibility of the patient picking at the insertion site (it really is not an incision) and removing the implant - he had a ferret do just that the previous week. So far so good here though! *knocks on wood*
 
These are exciting results! I'm thinking though perhaps having the implants done before any tumours develop might be the better way to go. We need more people trying this method out so we can see the results.
Here, we've had over 60 rats go through a spay and I disagree with you as for recovery. Almost all ours have recovered 100% if not better after their spay.

Vic, if you ever want to sit down and do a write up on implants. I'd love to add it to our Reference Center. You could title it Implants, an Alternative to Spaying. The more people become aware of this procedure the more rats will get it and the more accurate the results.
 
just to add my two cents worth -- I imagine that in general, the degree of a rat's recovery is relative to their age and the individual rat's health issues. In my case, I didn't realize my girl rats could have been spayed when young to avoid tumors when older, so by the time they had their first surgery, it was tumor removal surgery, and they were 18/20 months old. The spay surgery, ideally, would happen when the rat is much younger, and more likely to recover quickly and fully.

I'm also very excited about this implant option. Am watching my Skittles to see if it will work for her. fingers crossed.
 
From my experience I'd say only health plays a role in recovery. Some of mine who recovered fast were over 18 months but in top health and no tumours at the time.
 
I completely agree that implants (like spaying) are more effective before the incidence of a tumour. I'm not sure if I stressed this in one of my earlier posts (I know I didn't fully understand this for the first implant) but the implants are equivalent to a spay (or neuter) but they are not permanent - they have to be replaced after a year. There is a lot of evidence that spaying is almost 100% effective at preventing mammary tumours if done before 6 months of age, but after that point, particularly if one has already developed, nothing is guaranteed.

Deslorelin implants are a really good alternative to spaying (or neutering) in older rats or ones that are not healthy enough to undergo surgery. They're minimally invasive, there is almost no risk of infection because the cut is so small (unless you have a rat or ferret that digs it out), and virtually no recovery time.

I have had mixed experiences with the health of my rats after undergoing surgery - some did bounce back to their perfectly healthy selves for many months afterward, but I have had experiences when a rat got sick within 2-3 months of surgery and went downhill quickly. One of my vets that has been treating rats for a very long time has also found that surgery can make rats more susceptible to illness, particularly in a colony that has rats with chronic respiratory issues or if a rat has been seriously ill before - both of which apply to my current colony. (Rats have such a short lifespan though, that can be attributed to them simply getting older.)

That being said, I am not anti-surgery and I strongly believe in spaying all female rats if possible regardless of age, especially after talking to Jo in chat about her results with spays. It's nice to have the alternative to surgery for sick or older rats, it'd be nice to see a study done to compare the of the two.

Jo - I will definitely look into doing a write up, going to try to find more info on it's use on rats first.
 

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