non-surgical treatments for tumors

[ChrisK]

My girl had surgery to have a small mammary tumor removed approximately 8 weeks ago. Her hair has not all grown back yet. And up pops another tumor. She is 23 months old, and I believe she needs time yet to recover still from the last surgery before we can consider another one.

So I'm looking into any non-surgical treatments I can find to slow/arrest tumor growth. Thanks to this forum, I've learned about lupron, which I will mention to the vet at our appointment next week (he's on vacation this week).

I've also just come across some very interesting information about Vitamin E used in an actual scientific study, shown to arrest mammary tumor growth in rats. Unfortunately, Vitamin E is fat soluble, and I haven`t been able to find the proper dosage anywhere yet, so I`m still researching it.

I was wondering if anyone on this forum has had success with any non-surgical methods for arresting the growth of tumors? Or knows of others? Or heard of new treatments?

 

[jorats]

I believe Victoria is trying something new with implants? Hopefully she'll see this post, if not, I'd PM her.

 

[victoria]

Yes, I have 3 rats with mammary tumors 4.7 mg Deslorelin implants. The implants are the equivalent to a chemical spay, so they don't necessarily prevent the tumors from growing back (especially since the procedure is being done after a tumor has appeared) but they may slow down the growth of existing tumors and/or prevent/slow new ones from popping up.

The implants being tested are already used in dogs to temporarily (they last for a year) chemically castrate them, and were tested in scary high doses on rats prior to being used on dogs for toxicity with no ill effects. My vet is doing a clinical trial to test their effectiveness at treating mammary tumors in rats. The idea is, as soon as a tumor pops up, the Deslorelin is implanted in the hopes of avoiding/delaying surgery. It is most notably a viable option for rats that are not healthy enough for surgery yet. As my vet explains it, the implants allow us to see which tumors will grow and need to be removed and avoid surgery in those cases.

Three of my girls have them, the first two (Sophie and Butterscotch, both under the armpit) got theirs in May, the third (Ava, on her collarbone/ribcage) in July, all within a week of me finding the lump.

Sophie had another pea sized lump pop up on her collarbone in late June/early July and then her existing lump started growing so we tried to have them both surgically removed about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It took too long to remove the first one so my vet left the second one, although once Sophie fully recovers from the first surgery, we are going to talk about removing that one too. Had we not waited to remove the first one, it would have been a much easier surgery but we would still be in the same position with the second one today.

Butterscotch got her's done a week after Sophie and her tumor is only now starting to grow. It's growing slowly though, so unless any others pop or it starts growing faster, we will likely leave it.

Ava's lump appeared overnight and was huge but really soft and squishy, even for a mammary tumor. A month after the implant, her's has shrunk to a quarter the size it used to be.

The procedure itself involves giving the rats some Isofluorane gas to sedate them, shaving the area in between their shoulders, making an approximately 2mm incision, inserting the implant, and gluing the incision closed. It costs about $270 for the procedure, beginning to end. Depending on who does it (or maybe because one of my vets trusts me more than the other) they can go home right away or after 4 hours. The check-up (required to confirm the mammary tumor, do a health check, etc.) is $55, the implant is $185, and then of course there are taxes. Much cheaper than a spay (at my vet anyway) or a simple lumpectomy. No meds, no incision to heal, almost negligible risk of abscesses, just a bald spot for a few weeks.

But, like spaying after a rat has already developed a tumor, there are no guarantees. And depending where you live and how much you spend (assuming you could come here to get it done, because I'm almost a hundred percent positive that mine is the only private practice that is doing it) on veterinary care, it can be really pricey.

I have had many rats with mammary tumors and have tried many things to prevent them from developing, growing, or coming back, and there doesn't seem to be one way. IME, there are so many factors that can affect the occurrence of mammary tumors, there is not one solution. The best bet is to have a rat spayed before the age of 6 months, as that has been shown to drastically reduce the risk of mammary tumors. As you probably know, low sugar, low fat diets are said to help slow tumor growth, as well as many people recommend soy free diets. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

 

[jorats]

Unspayed rats should have a high soy diet. The estrogen found in soy is not as potent as the natural estrogen and it quickly takes the place of the natural estrogen on the receptors thus reducing the risk of mammary tumours.

I have found that spaying at any age helps to drastically reduce the risk of mammary tumours. I pay $280 for a spay.
I some point, I'll mention the implant project to my vet. I just can't seem to remember about it each time I go in. :wallbang:

 

[ChrisK]

Victoria, Thanks so much for writing with this info. I will PM you with a few questions.

My hope is that I can somehow sort thru whatever has worked for others and find something that will work for my girl. I think that's what we all do.

In the meantime, I realized last night that the new lab block diet I've been giving my girls since their surgery actually includes Vitamin E, so they're getting more of it now than they did before. That's one step in the right direction.

And I will add soy to their diet. (thanks Jorats)

continuing to research more...

 

[ChrisK]

Victoria -- As I mull this over, I have just a few more questions about the implants.

I'm comparing the procedure to put the implants in vs. tumor removal surgery, with an eye to how much stress it puts on the patient's little bod.

In both cases, the isoflorane is given. In both cases, an incision is made and hence some type of glue or stitches, etc is required to close it.

In the case of surgery there are often other additional meds given including pain killers. From what you've mentioned so far, I'm assuming this procedure is much less stressful and less risky for our pets, but I'm not understanding why. I'm coming from the perspective that the most dangerous part is the anesthetic. Can you shed some light on this for me?


Also, you'd mentioned this experimental treatment is done just after a tumor appears. Has your vet said what the time limit is for implanting this? i.e. if a rat has had a tumor for several weeks is it too late? or for a month, etc. ?

Again, thanks very much for sharing your information and experience with me.

 

[xxchelle]

I've heard that one of the more stressful parts of surgery for rats (not necessarily THE most stressful) is keeping their body temperature correct during surgery. Cutting out a tumor and possibly even skin tissue (if it stretched around a large tumor) would mean they'd be "under" for a lot longer than just inserting something under the skin, I'd think. Especially when you consider larger tumors have significant blood flow going to them, there's a lot more detail in the surgery and a lot more could "go wrong".

I'd guess that's the reason for the lowered risk, but I have no personal experience with this implant.

 

[jorats]

If I were comparing the two, I would think that the implants are way less invasive than a tumour removal. I seem to recall hearing that they aren't put under fully like real surgery, is that right Vic? Or did I just make that up. lol
I would think that surgery time is shorter with implants than a removal and so recovery is faster.

 

[victoria]

Just to be clear, Isoflourane is not given to anesthetize, but just to take the edge off. They never lose consciousness, just get groggy. This is done to prevent them from squirming and getting injured.

The implant site is only 2mm long, at most. It's almost like a prick of a large gauge needle. Within an hour or two they are completely back to normal, except for the bald spot between their shoulders. I believe that the gluing of the skin is an example of my vets being overly cautious and foreseeing the worst case scenario, rather than a necessity. The procedure is WAY less stressful and carries far less risk than a lumpectomy, otherwise I would have just had the lump removed and had them spayed at the same time, since it would be cheaper to do it that way rather than getting the implant and later getting a lumpectomy if needed. Like I said, one of my vets releases my girls to me within five minute of the procedures, the other keeps them for a few hours to make sure there are no ill effects from the Isoflourane, but she is extremely cautious and this is also a practice that requires my rats (and I think all other patients) to stay overnight after any surgical procedure. There are no drugs given after the procedure, and IMO, none are necessary... every single one of my rats was out for playtime the night of the implant and got into just as much trouble as usual - no signs of pain, respiratory issues, etc. Come to think of it, the night of Butterscotch's implant, we had neutral ground intros, and if you knew the hell I went through for those intros, you would understand when I tell you I did not take any unnecessary risks.

As it turns out, I'm going to the vet tomorrow so I will mention to him that your vet may be calling and let you know what he says.

 

[ChrisK]

Thanks for clarifying that. Wow... that sounds WAY less stressy than I'd imagined. IF it's an option for us, I will want to go that direction. Unfortunately, my girl's tumor has grown some in this past week, and we're still hanging in there until Wednesday evening to meet the vet. Her tumor is still not as large as a golf ball, but I don't know if it'll be a good candidate for this procedure, or if she'll have to just have the lump removed. Of course, I don't know if the procedure is even an option here, but I will definitely talk to the vet about it.

 

[ChrisK]

I just returned from a visit with a different veterinarian in town. We've discussed Lollipop's tumor and the options. I mentioned the implants, and this vet has already been using the implants with ferrets. He had one in a display case on his wall He also already is familiar with the vets in Montreal, and said he will contact them to discuss using the implants with rats.

In the meantime, he's given us an herbal remedy to use, which he's used so far on just a handful of ferrets and rats but with very good results. As there are no contraindications with herbs and vitamins or other medications, once he's got the info about the implants, if we go that direction, we can do both implants and herbs if we want to.

I'll be keeping an eye on the size of the tumor regularly. And hope to hear back about the implants within a few days.

 

[LA]

What are the herbs you got?

 

[jorats]

That's great!! I'd like to hear about the herbs as well.

 

[victoria]

I had totally forgotten that they're being used in ferrets - oops! I was there again today and forgot to mention your vet may call - sorry. If I have to go back in in the next few days *fingers crossed I don't* I'll try to remember. Good luck :hugs:

 

[ChrisK]

I was there again today and forgot to mention your vet may call - sorry. If I have to go back in in the next few days *fingers crossed I don't* I'll try to remember. Good luck :hugs:

Victoria: fingers crossed here too!! And no worries.. this vet says he's already been in touch with the the folks at the Montreal clinic. He's sent people there before for other types of exotics (reptiles I think) because he said it was worth the 2 hour trip. He knew your vets by name.

The herbal remedy we're trying on Lollipop is a traditional Chinese herbal formula from a company named Kan Essentials. It's called "Blood's Palace" The idea is that it helps blood circulation in the body. He thought my Lollipop might be a good candidate for this because he found in examining her that she showed a few signs of poor circulation.

We're to give her 3 drops orally with food, two times each day. We gave her the first dose this morning.

The vet said that he's only used this in a handful of cases so far, not all gave results, but the ones that did, he found the tumors shrank and there have been no new growths. Disclaimer -- he's only been using this stuff since January this year, and only on a handful of ferrets and rats. It's still in the experimental stage.

We will continue giving both girls vitamins and watching their diet more carefully in the meantime. I will keep you all posted on how things go. (I'm saying my prayers!)

 

[ChrisK]

oh.. and I forgot to mention... the vet said OMG I can't believe how GOOD Lollipop is! (She let him examine her extensively for a long time and she kept licking his hands.)

And I responded... "Yes she is!" (that's my girl!) :nod:

 

[Chelipepper]

have been gone for a bit and just logging back in ..what a godsend to see this post =) .. one of my older girls has started to develop a tumor .. she has some other health issues going on that the vet is working with her and the vet wanted to put the tumor situation on a back burner for a bit til we get her heart situation taken care of first .. i was looking for something non surgical that could help her soooo thank u very much for the herbal ideas ..my poor little girl, the less she has to go thru invasively , the better

 

[ChrisK]

I heard back from the vet and he said he can do the implant for Lollipop here in Ottawa. (It'd be his first time doing this on a rat. He's done the implants on ferrets before.) Our only issue right now is that it takes at least a week and a half to get in to see him, and the tumor has been gradually increasing in size. I'm not sure if the timing is going to work or not. I will give a call first thing Monday.

I think worst case scenario, Lollipop seems healthy otherwise, and maybe could handle another surgery. But having been barely over two months since her last one, I still don't want to subject her to another yet. Poor girl. But I can't let the tumor grow too big before taking that step either. I hope the vet will offer some advice on this too.

 

[ChrisK]

just an update and a question

Tomorrow lunchtime my girl and I are going to the vet to get the implant.

Since our visit with the vet 8 days ago, Lollipop has been taking the herbal treatment. It looks to me like the tumor has continued to grow, so I don't think the herbs are working in her case. Although it is very difficult to know the size of the tumor for sure, as we have no accurate way of measuring it. But to my eye, it appears to be a bit larger and hanging more.

From what I've been reading, it appears that reports of treatments working or not working are always after 4 weeks. So I'm assuming that's how long we have to wait to know for sure ?

Under the circumstances, however, 4 weeks seems like a long time. That is, if the tumor continues to grow, it'd be much bigger, surgery more risky, etc. by then. Unless it's common for a tumor to first grow more for a week or so and then stop or decrease in size with some treatments.

Victoria.. in the cases where the implant worked for your girls, do you recall how long it took to see the difference? And if the tumors grew more first, before stopping to grow or shrinking?

 

[ChrisK]

Just back from the vet. Lollipop now has the implant. *fingers crossed*

Lollipop seems totally fine, but I was surprised about a few things, and I hope the vet did it right. He did not shave the spot on her back where he put the implant in. He did give her isoflorane, disinfect it, and did put some glue on it when done. And Lollipop seems totally fine.

The whole procedure took 5-10 minutes, and I was expecting Lollipop to be sleepy or something when I got her back, but if anything, she was even more energetic than usual for a while. (she's sleeping now)

I was totally unnerved by three loud squeaks I heard come from behind the door during her procedure. Not a sound I've heard from Lollipop, and I *hope* it wasn't her, but I was afraid the vet was hurting her. I didn't expect that either. I hope he gave her enough isoflorane and did it right. Since she seems fine now, I have to assume all is well. 'though I'm keeping an eye on her like crazy today.

I was also surprised when the vet said that she might not get back some of the hair she's lost (from last surgery) because of the implant. I'd consider that a side effect of the implant, and he'd told me there were none, but now he says this can happen because it works on a hormonal level. Okay, that's not a huge issue, but it leaves me wondering if he forgot to tell me something else too.

Well, I'm praying this implant will work for little Lollipop, with no ill side effects. I know this is experimental stuff at this point, but I could really use a few words of support right now.