No longer responding.-Videos of Owls breathing added.

[RattusNorvegicus]

I literally just feel like burying myself in a deep hole to get away from everything. Why are ALL of MY rats ALWAYS sick? I don't know what I am doing wrong! I always feel like I am over medicating my rats and causing the bacteria to become resistant. Am I? I follow the information and go the full course. Or what else could it be? Bad genetics? Age?

For example. Ellie became congested and started wheezing. I ignored it to see if it would clear up on it's own but it didn't. So I started her on Baytril and waited for improvement about a week. No improvement so I added Doxycycline. Perhaps slight improvement, but then she plateaued. I kept her on it anyway for I believe 4 weeks. Still sick I switched out the Doxy for Zithro as she got worse and had a weird wheezy sound in her lungs. Not monkey sounds, not congestion..a strange wheeze. Anyway, after a week she seemed to be getting better as she stopped breathing so heavily, but that didn't last long. I never ran short courses, I follow dosages from the RMCA drug chart, the meds just aren't working.

NOW, it's not just her. Similar stories to them ALL (I have 7 rats) except one of the rats as she isn't sick often. An occasional URI that doesn't need treatment. (Possibly allergies.)
They get sick, I wait, I add a med, recently I went to it and added two, no improvement. Again, it's not a day on this med, a day on that. I keep them on it. A lot of my rats have costal breathing, a lot, if not all, having noises in their chests. Is this not what I am supposed to do? I understand taking them to the vet, which I do, but not all as I simply can't and what she would do is start them on Zithro which I have done. Next thing would be tests which I can't afford. Which is stupid, I know.

My vet seems frustrated with me, and the assistants. They know how much advice I take from you guys and the basically say you can't trust forums, etc. I understand though..there are some really wrong groups out there. They don't understand the experience you guys have though, and the accuracy of the information the Ratguide has. Am I doing something wrong? I tell my vet everything, I mainly get all my meds with her consent if she's seen the rat (except Baytril and Doxy) and I take my rats in as much as I can. I don't know what to do. I don't know why nothing is helping.

**Apart from that, another reason I made this thread is for Owl. For as long as I can remember, Owl has always had sneezing fits and congestion. She has been on meds to treat her flare ups in the far past, but more aggressive treatment lately. She will sneeze excessively, porph, congestion/monkey sounds though always happy and bouncing around. Zithro used to do the trick, but after her spay once she was started back on it again, it didn't clear it up. But kept her stable. I added Clavamox about a week ago, and to my complete disappointment, there has not been any improvement. Before that she was on Baytril for months. Also a combo before her spay of Doxy and Baytril. Next step is heart meds right?
When I went into the vet the other day to get a refill of zithro, I asked the assistant to ask my vet if we could test to see if it's her heart with Enalapril and she said if nothing is wrong with her heart it will kill her. I said I've read it is safe enough to be a diagnostic tool which is when she said something about me taking advice off of the forums. She wasn't being rude, just letting me know that they are just sharing their medical opinion. She also said I need to be careful mixing meds (I am sure to looks up contraindications) and to be careful giving her so many meds as it will destroy her gut flora. I mentioned I have been giving her a pro-biotic. So to those who have been so kind enough to read this mess, thank you and I will really appreciate your advice. I hope I explained it decently enough to not make something seem the way it's not.-I do that a lot.

 

[jorats]

I'm really sorry you are going through this. My vet is the same way about online advice. I can't go to her and say that I read this and that. I have to find studies and vet articles to give proof that we should try something.
It could be that your colony has Car B. If you do, then your rats will have multiple flare ups and will end up dying form respiratory issues. Car B is highly contagious and is in fact is extremely prevalent. I've read in some places that you are lucky if you find a rat free of Car B.
It's all a matter of genetics, environment and luck. With my gang, my protocal is Baytril, combo Baytril/zithro and worst case, combo Baytril/Zithro/metacam/my own albuterol puffer.
In the past, all my rats were sick. I changed their diet and later started to nebulize my healthy rats. My rats were dying of pulmonary abscesses. I nebulized even the healthy rats. At this point, I was frustrated and didn't care about resistance. My vet was on board with this and was following the pulse treatment. It worked. Every 2 months, I would nebulize for 2 weeks. It kept my rats healthy and living longer. Eventually, when they died and new rats came into my home, I stopped the nebulizing because the new group weren't sick. The strict diet of only blocks and veggies seem to keep them quite healthy and thin.
In the end... you do the best you can. It's not always up to you. Don't beat yourself up about it and keep going to the vet when you can afford it. I've had rats who were very sick, I tried all the meds and combos and still nothing, I would stop all meds, wanting to give them some life without meds. And some of them would live another few months, med free and happy enough.

 

[temblabamomo]

How frustrating! I'm sorry you and your little ones are going through this. Jo is right - you do what you can as best you can, and don't beat yourself up over something that's beyond your control. My vet is the same about online advice. He doesn't even trust Ratguide. You are doing what you can for your rats. It may be car b like Jo said, or it could just be a big run of bad luck with genes/age/other factors. Keep your chin up and remember that some things are going to be beyond your control. :hugs:

 

[mamarat]

It is very frustrating when nothing seems to work and they all get sick at the same time. After I've tried everything I will stop all meds and see what happens. Sadly some did pass but some did come back or stay status quo. I've had 136 rats leave me but I know I've done the best I could for them all. At times you have to accept the inevitable. Huge hugs, I know how you feel.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

Thank you so much for the replies. :heart:

That is heartbreaking to hear, respiratory issues are the last thing I wanted them to die from even though I knew it will most likely be their deaths. I see declination everyday, but I still feel confident even the worst ones are doing well enough to live quite a bit longer, at least to or a couple months past Christmas. For awhile I let their diet somewhat get out of control. They still had their Harlan all of the time, but I also fed them a lot of my food everyday and nearly every meal which made most a bit fat. My heaviest is 500g, but I have almost completely cut out that habit now and they get veggies everyday. I would like to go to the store and buy a larger variety as they've only had tomatoes, cucumbers, peas, corn and some fruits. What veggies do you guys feed most often? I was thinking of getting some Spring Mix.

I'll have to say what I have said in this thread to my vet when I go in, about them not improving anymore but I fear she'll quit listening and just think it's my fault. It could be, but I don't feel like it is. I don't talk directly to her enough to know for sure though. She seems to be against over medicating from experiences she has had.

Should I buy a nebulizer? I could do what you did Jo, to the rats who wouldn't stress out as bad. I'd keep an eye on those if it makes any of them worse, then not include them in the group steaming. Though if any have heart problems, I wouldn't want to kill them! Can oral Baytril be nebulized? I have about $300 in the vet fund right now, and am willing to spend $100 on a nebulizer in hopes it will prolong their life even a month. I wish I could get an oxygen tank too, but I imagine I can't do that?

 

[crumbilina]

I have found that none of my rats, even the skitty ones, get stressed out when nebulizing, as long as they have a friend with them. Nebulizing has worked in some of my rats. In others, there was really no response.

The vet should not blame this on you... It isnt your fault resistance has occurred. My guys do not respond to baytril AT ALL and I always take the abs full course. It is something that happens, everywhere! So don't feel like it is your fault or that anyone would blame you. Quite frankly, if your vet blames you, then I would look into finding a different vet. That lack of respect for their client is silly. If she needs advice on what combo could be used instead of the current treatment that is not working, perhaps she could post on the vet forum to get advice from other vets?

As for veggies, the way I look at it is that if it isnt on the forbidden foods list, its fair game. Just go to your produce section at the grocery store and think like a rat! LOL. My guys really like kale, broccoli and they go nuts for baby carrots. Spring mix they enjoy as well, but they will go for the carrot first.

ETA: No oral meds can be nebulized unless it is the injectable kind that has no additive (i.e.: sugary and tasty syrup)

 

[jorats]

I used injectible Baytril diluted with saline. When I nebulized in groups, it was definitely less stressful on the gang.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

You guys have helped me feel so much better about this situation. I am going to buy a nebulizer, and hope my vet sees benefits in it as I am set on giving it a try. When I had bronchitis, I couldn't even sleep because I could barely breathe and when I finally went to the doctor, they nebulized me and it was such a relief! She has never brought it up, so my awareness to her opinion is totally vacant. I buy 10% Baytril, it's clear with maybe a slight yellow tint, can that be nebulized? I think saline would do for now, though. Would hypertonic saline be better? What is the difference?

I would imagine nebulizing with saline would help break up nasal congestion in one of my girlies too? She'd be so happy about that.

While I remember, are there any studies and such explaining Enalapril is safe to diagnose heart issues someone can send me? With so many here using it as a diagnostic tool, I can't imagine my vet would be right about it causing death. I hope she knows I just want every. single. option to be open with tests not causing money to get in the way of possible treatments.

I will go to the store and buy a large variety of veggies then! I'm really excited to see them try something new.

You guys are the best. :cuddle:

 

[crumbilina]

There are certain parameters that you need to follow for nebulizers. The particle size needs to be a specific size which I cannot recall right now.
But, the neb that I have is this one http://www.medexsupply.com/product_info.php?pid=17311 and the particle size was correct.

Check the label of the baytril you have. If it says injectable and you know there are no syrups added then its ok to nebulize.

Edited for grammar

 

[jorats]

The particle size should be between 0.5 to 5 microns. Basically any that is made for infants.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

I got the one you linked crumbilina.

So now, need to make an appointment with my vet and hope she wants to try it too. I am very socially [s:1fv7holf]awkward[/s:1fv7holf] incapable, so trying to explain things will be difficult.

I will update soon.

 

[jorats]

Good luck!

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

Thanks Jo.

I have an appointment made for Owl, Luma, and Eddy Monday at 5:00pm.
Owl for resp issues possibly heart problems, Eddy for more than likely pulmonary abscesses, and Lu for her possible Melanoma and nasal congestion. The exam for each will only be $22 since she's seen them all before which I am very happy about. If she agrees to try nebulizing which I hope she will as my hope lies in it right now, should I ask for hypertonic saline rather than just saline? If so, what would be the reason why for wanting hypertonic instead? What is the difference?

Owl is having a horrible day. She is so congested, but she is so optimistic is makes my heart flutter. She's struggled with respiratory problems for so long but everyday when she wakes up she's always bouncing around. With a uterus full of pus for weeks- still bouncing around! Now that her resp problems are getting worse, well, she's still bouncy. I love her stupid little butt so much. She is unbelievably grateful.

 

[jorats]

If the vet suspects heart issues, she shouldn't be nebulized. It could make things worse for her. But if she listens to the heart and it sounds good then you can do only hypertonic saline which draws mucus out of the body or nebulize saline/meds like injectible baytril. If I were you, I would do the hypertonic saline and do oral baytril/zithromax combo.
Hypertonic saline would be good for nasal congestion. For pulmonary abscess, we had seen long term zithromas actually shrink the abscess, not enough to save the rat's life but enough so the rat could adapt and live longer. But that was only one case with us.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

She is a wonderful vet and understands my advocation.. But if she simply will not try Enalapril (Which really, I can't think of a reason she wouldn't at least consider it) Then maybe she'd try Lasix.

Anyway, I have a nebulizer now, but unfortunately have to reschedule to either Friday or Next Monday. I came down with a cold and the last thing I want to do is get my vet, and everyone in the clinic sick. Surely my girls will be okay until then, they are strong. I got them some 85% dark chocolate to help them breathe..and help me breathe.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

I think today's vet visit went well. It was thoroughly enjoyable to talk to my vet face to face again rather than someone transferring what I said to her and what she said to me. She said she doesn't suspect heart issues with Owl because she is very pink and whenever she sees a rat with heart issues their toes and such are cyanotic. She said her heart sounds great, and that she thinks it's err...my memory fails me. :/

She too thinks Ed has pulmonary abscesses and described her chest as barreled. Ed will be on Zithro/Orbax for the rest of her life. Should I add Aminophylline? I've been giving her dark chocolate daily, but feel that a bronchodilator would be better. And then do I add Dex near the end stages?

Oh Ed. :cry4: ANYTHING else I can do to keep what good is left of her lungs good?

I asked about nebulizing and mentioned my concerns with Owl. She said she'd go ahead and nebulize her, and explained how nebulizing has helped patients of hers.

She thinks they have a resistant strain of myco. I'd think so too.

I tried nebulizing them when I got home and it wasn't successful. They panic from the hissing noise. Except Luma, I was able to hold her and she just dozed off the lovely way Luma does. :heart:

I made them baby cereal but they ended up trampling it all over the place while trying to escape the kennel. Any suggestions? I feel like I am detaching myself as I haven't broke out in tears just yet. Ever since I've been learning more and more about rat health, I keep myself aware that my rats' lives are so close to being over. I know I am doing all I can but that isn't satisfying. It's their life they are losing, not me losing what I love most that makes me feel so sad. This is all just terrible. I wish I believed in rainbow bridge..I wish it existed rather. :sad3:

 

[yoland]

Heart meds link-

I'll look for more- but this is from where I am getting meds it's a pet only pharmacy.
http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/treatin ... enalapril/

 

[crumbilina]

You have the same neb as I do, and I find sometimes it isnt the hissing as much as the loud noise of the actual nebulizer that annoys them.

What I do: I neb right beside a closet. I run an extension cord into the closet with the nebulizer in it, then run the tube out - both cord/tube under the door. Then I close the door... The sound from the nebulizer is GREATLY reduced (which makes it a nice environment for me as well). This could help... its worth a try. Being in the closet still allows for some circulation which the nebulizer needs. I have done this since the day I got it - although I think it was more me that was irritated by the noise.

You nebulize them with at least one buddy right? If not, try that.

One thing that comforted one of my rats who got just a tad stressed out was simply putting a hand into the carrier, or fingers through the bars... she just cuddled up to the hand and waited it out. Mind you, she's a lone rat right now so she has no buddies to cuddle up with. I kinda took that place.

Hopefully something here will help. Scritches to your rattums and :hugs: for you.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

Thank you crumbilina. :cuddle:

I did nebulize with buddies, yes. I tried what you mentioned, and they still freaked out. Is it "normal" for them to dash around trying to get out?

I figured something out though!
My focus right now is nebulizing Eddy and Luma. They don't find it scary while they are in their cage, so being in a smaller area must be what makes it scary. So when they are in their hammocks sleeping, I pet over their eyes (which they love and fall back asleep) and then hold the nebulizer tip an inch away from their face. And they just doze off...no stress at all.

Is this just as effective?

 

[crumbilina]

The small space could very well be the problem then. My guys are used to being in the carrier since the vet is a long way away and when I clean cages they go into the carrier. It is also their "safe" place during out time so they are pretty comfy in there. They have never run around trying to get out as you described.

I think it is still effective as long as the vapour is inhaled. This would really be my only concern with doing that. When the carrier is full of vapour you know they are inhaling the vapour... in the cage it might be a bit more difficult to tell.