Multiple neuters?

[Deb]

Ok. So the second day was a little different. Coco basically ignored Bacon other then a few sniffs here and there. Bacon stayed in one spot the majority of the time(backed into a corner of the bathroom) even ignoring food. About 50 minutes into their hour Coco sprawls out for a nap. Biscuit goes to Bacon, tackles and flips him. Bacon screams and when let up, tries to disappear into the wall. Not happening. Biscuit strikes again, flips and holds Bacon down. Then Biscuit sniffs him a few times and walks away. Bubbles runs over to sniff Bacon a few times and also walks away. Bacon stands stiff and terrified in the corner and doesn't move until I call it quits about ten minutes later.
Last night there were no fights. Other then just sniffing him multiple times and turning sideways, pushing him, neither Coco nor Biscuit jumped little Bacon. They were trying hard to find a way out of the bathroom! Bacon stood the entire hour in the corner just watching and waiting to be attacked. The 2 or 3 times I went into the bathroom, Bacon would desparately try to crawl up my body. I kept setting him back down but he would squeak and leap as far up my leg as he could. Ofcourse the other four are all trying to climb me too. I quess they hate the bathroom. Except for my entrances, Bacon will not move an inch from the corner.

But...no blood or flying fur. Think Bacon will ever stop turning into a statue when the others are around?

 

[jorats]

Bacon will come around when he feels more secure. I'd go ahead and sit on the floor with them during the out time now. But making sure that Bacon is exposed like have him on your knee which would allow the other rats to go sniff him.

 

[Deb]

Thank you. I will sit with them tonight. Hehe, Bacon will not stay on my knee. The top of my head is where he attempts to get to everytime I join them in the neutral zone!!!
Should I stay in there the whole hour just petting and playing with all of them?

 

[jorats]

Yes, stay in there the whole time and when you see Coco on Bacon, rubbing his butt on Bacon, take your hand and move him off of Bacon and say a firm NO. Coco should come to realize that you are alpha and he can't do that to Bacon. This should also help Bacon feel more secure.
Oh and don't let Bacon go on your head, he must close to the others.

 

[Deb]

The last two nights weren't toooo bad. But Bacon is just terrified. I stayed with them and he won't get off me. I keep putting him down and he just leaps, jumps, and claws his way back up me. Last night after about 50 minutes, Coco decides to try and get over the barrier. He jumps, slides back down. Jumps again and slides back down. I watched his whole attitude change! He hunkered down close to the ground, laid his ears back and squinted his eyes almost closed. Then he spied Bacon and slunk over to him(Bacon was in a corner because I kept taking him off me and putting him on the floor). Fur puffed and he turned sideways. I did what you said and slid my hand between them gently pushing Coco away saying NO Coco. He immediately did it again. I repeated my actions. Then Pooh Bear walked up and Coco jumped him. Bacon in the mean time had made a beline for my shoulder. So I called it a night. Tonight however, Coco jumped Bacon immediately time and time again. I have scratch marks all over me from Bacon tryng to get away. He made it to my head three times and I had to literally drag him outta my hair. Even Coco and Pooh Bear kept going round and round. It's like they were in very bad moods. Bacon is so stressed that he is grunting, bruxing and squeaking when anyone brushes against him, even me. I am worried about Bacon being alone. Two weeks in QT and now three weeks in a lonely cage. He loves his mommy time though. Constantly popcorning, bruxing, playing, kissing, etc. As soon as he realizes the big boys are nowhere around he is so happy. You don't think neutering may help? The big boys are getting close to six months old. Or do I just need to give it more time?

 

[Moon]

If anything you might want to consider one neuter to start, for Coco. Sounds like he is doing a lot of instigating. When one set of hormones leaves the group, things can change amongst all of them.

 

[henry's_mum]

wow, sounds familliar to some of my intro's, lol!

It doesn't sound horribly bad though. If you're still concerned, you could, like Moon suggested having Coco neutered. This could do one of MANY things though...
This COULD make someone else's hormones go out of whack, due to the fact Coco isn't the boss anymore, so someone else could feel the need to step up, so to say.

Coco does sound like the "prob;em" thus far, and if it's possible, i'd try having him neutered, and re try intro's in a few weeks, when he's settled...

Just to give you an idea of how bad it could have gone though, I had 2 rats here, Henry, and Brillo. I wanted to intro them to one big HAPPY family, and when I attempted to do intro's, like magnets they instantly went for eachother. :roll: and in the middle was my hands, lol! We had blood, both human and rat blood, and some FREAKED out by standers, poor Murdoch, and Toby....
Needless to say both went in for neuters, and Henry passed while in the surgery, and Brillo is here today, fine, and SUPER nice to his buddies now....

So don't give up, it doesn't sound all that bad IMO...

 

[Deb]

I am so sorry to hear that Henry passed during surgery. That is one of my big fears. But I am tickled to hear that Brillo is a happy boy now. Though they have fought nearly on top of me, I have been lucky so far and neither has bitten me. When I interfere and grab Coco he just licks my fingers rapidly. I don't think Bacon has ever tried to bite Coco he is just trying to escape! The intro is still not going well. It seems Coco will tolerate Bacon for about 45 minutes. Then he gets aggravated that bacon even exists!! He will chase and jump on him or turn sideways and jump him. Coco seems to be a good dominant. The four boys get along great. they are always playing and sleeping together, He has small tussles with Pooh Bear but nothing serious. I really hate to change the dynamics of their colony. What about neutering Bacon instead ofCoco? He is low man on the totem pole. Will that make the older boys more tolerant or do you think they will pick on him even worse?
Coco has never drawn blood but the tension between them is so thick that bacon will not relax when he is out with any of the boys.

Thanks so much for the opinions. I really appreciate them.

 

[jorats]

Ah... I was hoping it would work out better than that.
Neutering Bacon might take away his great fear of rats.
If you could afford it, I would neuter both Coco and Bacon. Neutering does not take away their alpha positions, just makes them less mean about it.

I've had tons of males neutered and only lost one... but he had a heart condition to begin with and to be honest, I'd rather lose them that way then watching them suffer with heart issues for months on end.

 

[Deb]

I have been saving up for neuters since I decided to go with boys (just in case). I can actually have all five neutered if that would be beneficial for the colony or just do Coco and Bacon. I worry about Pooh Bear though. He is bigger then Coco and would like to be alpha. I have seen him push Coco a little too far occasionally and Coco quickly puts him in his place. You don't think Pooh would fight for alpha if Coco is neutered? I am sorry for all the questions but I am new to rat parenting and want to do what is best. I have learned so much from this site just reading through the posts and searching.

Thanks to all of you for this wealth of information :thumbup:
Debbie

 

[jorats]

If I could afford it... I would have all my males neutered, no question about it. :thumbup:

 

[Deb]

Ok, tried again today.Put them all in the tub for their first bath. Washed them with kitten soap and other then the scratches on my arms...all was fine. Dried them with towels and put them on my bed with me. All start to groom and I keep putting Bacon (who is trying to hide behind me) into the mix. Coco moves off the groom and takes a nap. Other then Bacon being stiff and scared, the next hour went ok. Then.....Coco gets up. Finds and sniffs Bacon several times. Suddenly Bacon takes off running with Coco hot on his heels. They end up behind me between the pillows and my back. I don't move to interfere. It last about 4 seconds with Bacon screaming. Coco moves across the bed to groom. I reach around to pick up little frozen Bacon to check him over. He has a spot of blood on his goolies. About the same as when you get your finger pricked at the doctors. Should I continue putting them together or wait until their neuters to try again? Poor Bacon is always so tense. The only time he is happy and relaxed is when he is alone with me or safe in his house. Their appointments are for 8/4 and 8/6. Three on the 4th and two on the 6th. I am arguing with hubby about this. He wants me to neuter 1 first and see if that works. If not, then do the others one at a time until problem solved. Personally I don't want to go through this 5 different times. I think I would rather pay the money to have it done for them all in two days. Hehe, I told him I had another option....a baby boy friend for Bacon and a new bigger cage starting a second colony. Imagine how that went over!! :wink2:

 

[jorats]

lol... I bet hubby agreed to all the neuter after plan B.

I would do the two Bacon and Coco and hold off on the other. I would also stop intros with Coco but if the others are ok with Bacon, I would allow the others to have Bacon visits.

 

[Deb]

Hubby did agree! He said "they're your boys, your decision. I know you want what is best for them" So, I had them all neutered last week. All are fine. What a stressful couple of days...... anic: My next question is how long should I wait for the hormone levels to go down before I try intros again?

Thanks,
Deb

 

[jorats]

Fantastic! I'd wait a couple of weeks then try but sometimes it can take up to 3 months for the them to settle down.

 

[Deb]

Ok. A couple of weeks it is. Sheesh......3 months? Poor Bacon. He needs a family besides me!! I hope it doesn't take that long. The good news is that Bubbles, my very shy one, (also the one Bacon is always trying to hump :doh, never attacks Bacon just kinda ignores him. Maybe, if Bac will now stop mounting him, they could bond first and he could have at least one friend until the others hopefully mellow out.

Thanks again

 

[Deb]

So.....they were all neutered several weeks ago. All went well, and all are healed. Did it change their attitudes toward Bacon?? Not one bit, sigh. Coco and Pooh still sidle, chase, and attack. Bacon still runs away then spends 10 minutes hiding, shaking and doing little jerky moves like hiccups. :gaah: I know it may take alot longer but I couldn't take little lonely Bacon anymore! A couple of weeks ago, I contacted a breeder and got him a new friend. Just started intros. The new boy is about 3 1/2 mths old. So far, not one stessed out moment between them :happydance: Only problem seems to be that Bacon doesn't know how to play with another rat. Little Koda tackles his belly kinda knocking him over and Bacon just sits there and looks at him. I have seen Bacon grooming Koda, and Koda likes to take Bacon's baby carrots away from him. But Bacon doesn't seem to mind. He just comes to momma for another one! So after all that, I did indeed end up with another big cage and a second colony :giggle:

 

[jorats]

Aww... in a few months, you might be able to try again, with both Bacon and Koda and the bullies.

 

[Moon]

Yes, don't give up on intros completely, sometimes you just need to take a step back and try again later. I'm glad Bacon has a buddy now Koda sounds like a cutie.

 

[Deb]

Yes, I will continue trying again in a month or so. My ultimate goal ofcourse is to have them all living together. I like them to have at least 2 hours of out time each night with more on the weekends. Right now that takes 4 hours of time every night. No problem for me but when hubby is in town he gets a little irritated that I spend so much time with the boys and not him ( although he plays with them too). I guess I could use the playpen more often but I like the boys to be with me. Once they can all play together, it will free up a little more of my time.

Koda is a cutie! He is a siamese rex and very curious. Still a little leary but definitely coming around. Tonight he actually crawled all over me when he saw Bacon on my chest getting scritches. He then proceeded to pee on my hand and arm several times. I guess I have now passed the "big rat seems ok" test! In a couple more weeks maybe he will lay next to Bacon for his own scritches.