Maggies Tumors((PICS)) called ottawa vets today

[Rattus]

ALL ADVICE APPRECIATED!!

So I posted earlier about finding a tumor on maggies belly near her thigh/groin. This tumor has been there about 2 months(I thought it might be an abcess but I dont know) It seems to just be hanging in her fat(not attached to anything but skin I think) Its growing VERY slowly.

About 3 days ago I found a bubble about the size of a big Almond on her left inner arm. It seems to have showed up over night but it seems to have stopped growing? or is growing VERY slowly aswell. I tryed to feel around it, it feels like its attached to the muscle or around the bone This arm one I think bothers her the most.

Question 1: If it is an abcess(I doubt both are, can you get more then one at once?) The closest I can get her an appt. is probably the week after easter, so in a week and a half(I need to be driven to Ottawa, Im 2 hours away) If it is an abcess will this do a lot of damage waiting this week and a half(take into account the belly one has been there for quite a while already)I know the abcesses carry infection.

Question 2: If they are tumors has anyone had experience with ones near these locations, is the one on her belly/groin too much of a risk to remove??

Question 3: I know if they ARE tumors they will probably come back right? she is an unspayed female so is this a very high yes? When I choose to get her fixed if I must, should I get the tumors removed THEN go back when she is healed to be spayed or should I get everything done at once. I know rats that are under too long have a greater chance of passing away? What are your thoughts??


PICTURES

Red line shows about where the tumor I think starts..


You cant tell but this bubble is also hidden, only some of it shows here, the rest is a bit bigger and sits deeper inside her belly..

 

[jorats]

These are looking more and more like benign mammary tumours. Both should be removed, and with an experienced vet can be removed at the same time. You might even want to consider having an implant put in. Victoria has more information on the implant.
How old is maggie?

 

[Rattus]

she is 1 year and estimated between 5-7 months.

 

[Ollie]

Poor girl.

 

[jorats]

she is 1 year and estimated between 5-7 months.

She's at the right age for mammary tumours. I'd get her spayed as well or the implants, all can be done at the same time with an experienced vet.

 

[victoria]

From: http://www.stlzoo.org/downloads/Deslore ... onForm.htm
Keep in mind this link is likely more than 5 years old and is talking about dogs when it talks about timelines. My vet says the implants will definitely last a year and are likely to last at least 1.5-2 years but there isn't enough research to make that guarantee. (Another forum member in Norway got them and was told they last 1.5-2 years.) I'm also fairly certain they are available in the US now.

Deslorelin effects contraception by temporarily suppressing the reproductive endocrine system, preventing production of pituitary (FSH and LH) and gonadal hormones (estradiol and progesterone in females and testosterone in males). The observed effects are similar to those following ovariectomy or castration, but are reversed after the hormone content of the implant is depleted. As a hormone agonist, deslorelin first stimulates the reproductive system, which can result in estrus and ovulation in females or temporary enhancement of testosterone and semen production in males. Then down-regulation follows the initial period of stimulation. Deslorelin has been effective in females of a wide range of species, but not in the male ungulates nor some marsupials tested to date. Efficacy in females can be monitored by estrous behavior or gonadal steroids in feces. Efficacy in male dogs has correlated well with testosterone suppression, but documentation of absence of sperm may be important in other species. Even after spermatogenesis is interrupted, there may be viable sperm in the ejaculate for weeks or possibly even months, as is the case following vasectomy.

The lump under her arm/front leg looks like a mammary tumour to me but I'm not entirely convinced about the one on her belly. I've had a few in that location and the mammary ones looked a little different than they did. (I also missed some of those on they're abdomen for a bit.) It'd be best to discuss it wiith a vet, but if they feel that it's removable and agree it's not a typical mammary tumour, I would have it removed. (It's hard to judge from pics, so don't worry too much.) Two weeks should not make a big difference in terms of whether or not they're removable though, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

If you choose to have the lumps removed, it would likely be cheaper to have her spayed at the same time than surgery plus an implant. If you don't have the money or can't figure out the logistics to have the lumps removed right away, then the implant would be cheaper and a lot easier to get done. Dr. Daren Auger at the Crowne Pointe Animal Hospital in Ottawa does the implants and is a knowledgeable exotic mammal veterinarian but he is supposed to also be expensive. It wouldn't hurt to call to see how much exams and the implants cost, and how long after an exam they could do a surgery. (You would likely be looking at spending the night in Ottawa, not sure if that's a possibility.) There is also a small exotic mammal veterinarian in Sault Ste. Marie here http://www.aemv.org/vetlist.cfm, not sure if that's closer to you but it may be more affordable as small town vets are cheaper than big city ones in my experience.

If you do get an implant, it would help prevent new hormone sensitive tumours and slow down the growth of the existing ones but, in my experience it would not shrink the existing tumours or stop them from growing all together. I have a two girls who have had tumours for more than 6 or 9 months respectively that are only now at the point where the tumours are big enough that I want them removed because they will get in the way if they grow bigger.

If I were you I would consider the implant if it's available (depending on the vet's assessment of the one on her abdomen) because of the girl's age and the fact you may not be able to get proper post-op care right away if needed. If you have the money though and can arrange it, get them removed and get her spayed.

Here is the thread I started on deslorelin implants.... read it, if you have any questions you can PM me or post them here, I will keep checking the thread. viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19025 I will get around to doing a reference article one day...

 

[Rattus]

Thanks for the info!

ok so here is whats going on now. I have about 300-, possibly 400 I've managed to get at the moment with budgeting A LOT lol, my next pay will be on the 26th so I'll have 500 to use in total.. and maybe my boyfriend can help with the rest. I was thinking of getting the tumors removed(is this surgery fairly dangerous?) Because I think the one on her arm is bothering her. Then I was thinking of getting the implant put in. I was thinking at first a spay but my nerves are getting in the way, Im terrified of a full on surgery, I love my little muffin :heart:

So if I have the tumors removed and get the implant do you guys think this is a good idea? Victoria, for rats that have had implants and you get the tumors removed, did the tumors take a long time to come back if at all? Im wondering if spay is better option but Im just scared of that lol

What do you guys think?

 

[jorats]

I think it was Victoria's rat that had a necropsy which showed the uterus had shrunk and atrophied all due to the implant so really, I'd say the implant is the way to go if you are worried about an invasive surgery like a spay.
Of course, this is all up to the vet really. He'll tell you what he thinks and what's best for your pet.

 

[victoria]

I've had two rats that got new tumours after being implanted - Sophie, who had many tumours of different types, none believed to be mammary after the first; and Oreo who was 23 months when implanted and got two right after the implant, I think the initial surge of hormones fed some that were already forming - out of seven girls I've had implanted. A few girls had what I thought were tumours in their armpits, but they all turned out to be reactive lymph nodes.

In my experience, I don't think $500 would be enough to pay for surgery and implants... depending on the vet and the lumps it may not be enough to pay for two lump removals and a spay. Keep in mind there is only one vet in the Ottawa area that I know does the implants and am basing my opinion, in part, to the fact that I have heard he's expensive. If you go to an experienced vet a spay is very safe, especially if you're rat is being anesthetized to remove the lumps anyway. If you call around to different vets in the Ottawa to get an idea of pricing and such. RKbusy wrote a thread a while back looking for vets in Ottawa viewtopic.php?f=20&t=19469 It's probably a good place to start, at least to get an idea who's available in the area.

 

[Rattus]

If I wait until the 10th of next month I'll have 700 or 800 to use possibly I'll phone up some places and see where has done tumor removels and spays at the same time. From what you guys are saying the spay does sound like the better option, I just feel anxiety when I think of deep surgery but I guess aslong as they've done it before then Im just being crazy paranoid! lol and I guess really the surgery is not the worry, its the anesthiesia. i'll see what place will give me a good price that is well experienced, if its not too much I will get it done sooner. If these tumors keep growing as slow as they are I will get a bit more money, we will see either way. This is ascary new situation for me! lol

 

[victoria]

Please call around now and get informed. Some clinics will not do surgery on the same day as an exam, not book surgery without seeing the rat first. If you explain your situation they will be able to tell you if they can work with you.

 

[Rattus]

ok, so I called up some hopitals in ottawa. All were pricey but I guess thats the way it goes :?
crownepoint do removels and spays -$352 for a spay wah.. :shock: but they seemed knowledgeable.
Lynwood has not done them but have done hamsters -$276+ tax for a spay.
Queensway have done removels and spays -$69.75 for exam so I assume between $200-$300 something(I forgot to ask) they seemed knowledgeable aswell.

The carp animal hospital I have to phone back at 2. The Kanata hospital is phoning me tomrrow with information(vet wasnt in) and Bells corners wouldnt even give me a price they said I had to make an appt. so it wont be happening there... so it seems Im looking at a pricey surgery no matter what, these arent even including the tumor removels...

 

[victoria]

That's pretty standard IME... lump removals can sometimes be more than the spay itself too. (Although it wouldn't bee $350 for a spay + $350 for a lump removal, there are a lot of one off costs (surgical kits, pain meds, OR time) that you save on having both surgeries at once.) If you're thinking of just doing the spay and no lump removals, just get an implant, it will be cheaper.

 

[Rattus]

yeah, I figured that the cost would be quite abit in total, the crownpoint place said the exam fee was included in that price aswell. Im hoping its not too dangerous to have 2 tumors removed and a spay done at the same time, I guess we shall see what the vet says. I guess I'll be going with crownepoint, queensway or kanata.. its hard to decide Im so nit picky and nervous lol :roll: Im sure im over worrying,having the best will put me a bit more at ease, not fun going through this when you have an anxiety disorder :lol: the lumps have gotten a tiny bit bigger so its gotta be done!

 

[Spork]

I got my girl spayed at the same time as a tumor removal, and it was much cheaper than doing them separately. It would have been $295 for just the removal or $305 for just the spay, but getting them done together was $332.

I do remember having a very hard time getting an estimate for a tumor removal when I was calling around, most paces seem to say that the vet would have to see the rat first, but if you explain your situation and ask to talk directly to a vet you might be able to get a price range. At least you could try to find out what the standard surgery costs are (anesthesia, surgery kit, pain injection, antibiotics, etc) and then you'll know that it's that amount plus whatever they charge for the actuall removal, which in my case was only a very small portion of the cost ($27).

Hope this helps!

 

[victoria]

The reason the vet needs to see the lump before giving an estimate is that they need to see the location, size, how attached it is, etc. to determine if it's removable and how long it will take.

 

[ChrisK]

Have you checked with Dr. Steve Liston for tumor removal? He's done all the tumor removal surgeries for my girls, and one strange growth removal as well. He's got an excellent track record and his prices are very reasonable. The last lumpectomy we had done was in January this year, and the exam + surgery + meds + follow up cost about $180.

Dr. Liston does not do spays or neuters, and to my knowledge does not do implants. However, when i went to Dr. Auger at Crownpointe for the implants, the total cost for that was just under $200.

So if your plan is to get the implants rather than spay, and you don't mind going to two separate vets / appointments, you could save a good bit this way.

Just a thought...

 

[Rattus]

Ok so Im getting an appt. for maggie this week coming(the examination) I have a question to ask though as it was kinda freaking me out but I think I figured it out. The tumor on her left arm is the size of a big grape! and this one seems to annoy her a lot. Ive noticed the last few days as its gotten bigger.. maggies balance SLIGHTLY went off.. just when she comes down ramps or gets ready to jump etc AND I DID try the cheerio test, she eats food fine. I was worried about a PT as Ive had 2 rats pass away from that so I know what the symptoms are first hand.. and maggie isnt doing that just funny balance.

Ive ALSO noticed she CAN hold her food but sometimes eats it off the floor or holds it funny but ONLY with the arm with the tumor, I think this tumor is effecting how she can move her arm, is this possible? and I think maggie is re-ajusting to the tumors as they are growing so could this make her slightly off balance? As I said she eats fine but tends to not hold stuff as much and she tucks her hand in that has the tumor alot almost like she cant use it or it hurts her too... Im thinking the tumors are effecting her in many ways so they must be too big now! Has anyone experienced this with the rats with tumors!? I panicked a bit thinking so had something wrong with her.. but its not getting worse..I really think its the tumors.. and Ive noticed maggie hasnt been acting very happy since the tumors got bigger, shes getting depressed? So exam will be next week and if theres nothing wrong hopefully very shortly after we can get these cut off!

 

[victoria]

If the tumour's only the size of a grape it should not affect her. Oreo had two tumours the size of ping pong balls removed today and they were not affecting her mobility in any way. The fact she's eating with one hand is worrisome because it can be indicative of early PT and anesthesia can speed up PT symptoms. (I would be not to get an implant either if I suspected PT because of the anesthesia and the initial surge of hormones.)

Hopefully someone who has more experience with PTs and surgery will weigh in. If it is PT you have caught it early and you may have more treatment options available to you. Search Bromocriptine and Cabergoline on the forum, some people have had success using them to treat PTs.

 

[Rattus]

I was afriad of that answer but I think I kinda already knew.. I just didnt wanna believe it. Poor Maggie, she so young still Hopefully when I got to the Vet and explain whats going on he will give me something even if there is not obvious symptoms, if I can hit this quick before many symptoms maybe she'll last a bit longer.. I know IF she does have it she'll leave us no matter what but maybe it will give her a nice solid couple months! Poor baby girl :heart: Im glad Im paranoid a lot in a way, as I randomly watch them like I do. I would NOT have caught that any other way, its REAL slight symptoms that I only noticed after pretty much staring at her for a long time while she was walking around and eating LOL Oh well, if this is the case, not much I can do, just take it day by day. IF this is the case then I'll have to get Milly a new friend somehow.

I'll research that other stuff. When I go to the vets maybe I should ask to try this stuff out first too see if I notice anything and we'll go from there.. if she does have it I hope these tumors grow real slow seeing as how she'll have them always .