Loki has a heart problem.- update 1/28/12

[hopefloats]

I noticed him starting to rock when he breathes. I got a bit of a video of it but it stinks. Crappy copy. His feet have been colder than the other rats feet are. He also went from just over 700g to about 683g now. Could be why my boy seems like he is aging so fast.

he acts fine. He still popcorns and is as licky as ever. He tires easily i guess short winded would be the word.

It is towards the end of the video here.
[BBvideo 425,350:1bciovyc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oA8MCG5ag[/BBvideo:1bciovyc]

I do not think my vet, which is my favorite med one, has treated a rat with heart meds. So we shall be training him now :giggle:

I couldnt quite remember the name of the meds but he gave me two different ones, i told him I would get the information to mix them. He is more than willing to get me what i need... So if these are wrong then i will call him back but i cannot get back out there till next week.

The first one is
Vetmedin chewable table 1.25mg

the second one is enalapril 2.5mg tablet

I need to mix these so i can syringe them to him. so dose help will be grand.

I told him what the names sounded like, but i wasnt sure. I know i seen SQ say these two names, he said the vetmedin is the atenol?

This is the first time i have tried to treat a heart issue so any tips or anything will be grand.

 

[kscanuck785]

awwww....what a big snuggle boy!

 

[TheRatQueen]

Did he hear something odd with his heart or is this just based on breathing??

 

[hopefloats]

he heard it in there.. His lungs are fine.

 

[TheRatQueen]

Thanks. I was going to take my 2 boys who have the constant respiratory problems to see if it's now a heart problem or scare tissue. I was curious if they'd really hear a heart problem or not.

 

[hopefloats]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/60791.php

The study concluded that dogs suffering from overt, clinical heart failure from atrioventricular valvular disease had improved quality of life and survival times when treated with pimobendan with or without furosemide, compared to those given benazepril hydrochloride with or without furosemide.

I found this, i am looking up the drugs


As the first of a new class of heart treatments termed Inodilators, Vetmedin has a dual mode of action, acting directly on the heart as a calcium sensitiser to increase myocardial contractility and on the peripheral circulation through selective phosphodiesterase III inhibition to produce both peripheral and coronary vasodilation. As a consequence, Vetmedin increases cardiac output and reduces both the preload and afterload. Furthermore, Vetmedin improves cardiac output by increasing the efficiency within the myofilaments, with no increase in myocardial energy requirement.


Pimobendan (Vetmedin) , combined with the other two groups I have already mentioned, is rapidly becoming a standard treatment for CHF in dogs. All positive ionotropes increase the strength of heart muscle while decreasing the pressure the heart must work against.
Calcium is important in the mechanism of muscle contraction. The force of heart muscles contraction is related to the amount of calcium ion present. Pimobendan increases the heart’s sensitivity to the calcium that is already there.


and this

http://www.2ndchance.info/conghtfaildog.htm

ACE Inhibitors
The most common drug in this group, used to treat CHF, is enalapril. But benazepril, captopril, lisinopril and other ACE medications are also used. Drugs in this class differ in their absorbability and the stress they put on the kidneys and liver. (Ref) Their effect on your dog is not immediate and it will take a week or so before you see improvement.

These medications decrease the effort your pet’s heart must make to pump blood through its circulation by relaxing and expanding blood vessels throughout the body. They do this by reducing the formation of a hormone in the lungs, (angiotensin II), that increases your pet’s heart work load (peripheral or systemic vascular resistance). Angiotensin II is also bad because it increased the production of a hormone your pet’s adrenal glands (aldosterone) that causes sodium and water retention and high blood pressure (RASS system) In doing so, ACE inhibitors lower blood pressure and decrease salt (sodium) and water retention.


Positive Ionotropes

Pimobendan (Vetmedin) , combined with the other two groups I have already mentioned, is rapidly becoming a standard treatment for CHF in dogs. All positive ionotropes increase the strength of heart muscle while decreasing the pressure the heart must work against.
Calcium is important in the mechanism of muscle contraction. The force of heart muscles contraction is related to the amount of calcium ion present. Pimobendan increases the heart’s sensitivity to the calcium that is already there.

Vetmedin opens up the blood vessels and eases resistance in the circulatory system dilating blood vessels, and improving the efficiency with which the heart functions as a pump. The combined effect is therefore to improve cardiovascular function and the blood flow to major organs. Vetmedin is licensed and appropriate for both the major causes of heart failure in dogs. In one clinically controlled trial, dogs with congestive heart failure survived on average (median) 42 days without Vetmedin, 217 days when Vetmedin was part of their treatment.

 

[hopefloats]

Thanks. I was going to take my 2 boys who have the constant respiratory problems to see if it's now a heart problem or scare tissue. I was curious if they'd really hear a heart problem or not.

Mally is noisy but her lungs are clear, it is more in her nasal area than in her actual lungs. She always sounds brutal but she always has and i think that virus may have scared her, she is healthy otherwise.

Loki, i can hear his breathing with our stethoscope, it is clean and clear, you can hear it comes out smoothly no crackles or anything. His feet have been colder than the other rats, the last few nights I have been feeling all of their feet. I notice their nails sometimes look darker but not always. He has looked tired to me, but ok still. I was concerned about his heart because of how he lost weight.


Before toby died, i noticed his weight shifted down, his back by his spine was thinner, but still kind chubby. In the weeks before dopey passed he was doing the same thing with his body, same shape. I noticed that loki's was as well so that is when I decided it had to be a heart thing since nothing else is wrong.

 

[TheRatQueen]

Gotcha. Are they all related or is this just an odd happening that they all have this same problem?

 

[hopefloats]

Dopey and toby were related......... Loki, templeton and Mally are related but I really think that heart problems more common than i think

 

[kscanuck785]

I'm sorry Peggy...

 

[TheRatQueen]

They probably pass of it before many notice it I'm taking?

 

[hopefloats]

It seems Templeton is doing the same thing. We had a really bad night last night and he was head bobbing when he breathes like Loki, but worse. Neither are sick in fact they are my healthy ones they havent ever really been sick, minor sneezes but they always cleared up fast.

Both are on meds now, i am hoping it helps, I really dont want to lose both so close to each other. Even though I have always thought i would lose both close. These boys are so bonded it isnt funny. They seek each other out and almost always together, loki grooming templeton my grumpy alpha boy.

 

[SQ]

I test dose with enalapril (0.25 mg/454.4g twice a day) to see if my rat has a heart problem after the combos of antibiotics don't work.
If it helps, then atenolol (1 mg/454.4 g twice a day) and lasix (as needed, starting dose usually 1-2 mg/454.4g twice a day) are added.
Digoxin is added if the heart is enlarged as seen on an xray.

(dose info taken from the Rat Health Care book, http://www.ratfanclub.org)

Sometimes the first two drugs help with conditions other then a heart problem, relieving symptoms and giving the rattie a good quality of life.
At present, I have two rats (Petite Grise, & Eve) on heart meds.

The info you posted is very interesting.
Shoppers Drug Mart here in Canada has a formula for mixing up the heart meds and knows how long they are good for, so I get mine by perscription from them instead of grinding up pills myself.

Hope your boys start to improve soon.
Perhaps they need lasix more frequently to keep the fluid out of their lungs until the heart meds have had enough time
(One of your articles said it takes the meds awhile.)

 

[hopefloats]

Their lungs sound clear, he listened and I have been. I dont hear anything in them. I am trying the enalapril on both, I am having problems with the other med because it is a chewable so mixing it has been hard. My vet is willing to help so if i call him then i can get more.

I am also unsure if meds such as baytril or doxy will interfere with it.... they dont need them now, but stuff i need to know I guess.

 

[SQ]

I have had a lot of rats on heart meds.
Heart problems, in my experience, are one of the main causes of death in rats.

My rats have been on heart meds and other medications (including baytril, doxy, clavamox, or zithro) with no problems.

 

[hopefloats]

I think i missed it with toby, dopey i guess i should of made them try but now he is willing after seeing me almost cry because I was going to lose Loki LOL It is hard to have it confirmed for me, but now he is willing to help me figure out meds so that is a plus for me. He told me if i figured out what i need then to call him, he said they dont need lasix yet because they are clear, so is lasix the one that cleans the lungs out?

 

[SQ]

Yes, it is a diuretic and removes fluid.
It is a balancing act to keep fluid down in the lugs but to take in enough liquid so they do not vecome dehydrated

 

[SQ]

Pimobendan (Vetmedin) may work similarily to atenolol but it is not the same drug so I have no idea what dose rats would get.

 

[hopefloats]

Ihave it but chewables don't mix the same

 

[hopefloats]

My loki is still stable for now. He is on the heart meds and doing ok other wise. He is the first one out the door tonight when it was time for their all night out time. I think they have become a bit spoiled by it He was so lost after Templeton, he was looking all over the cage in every hammock, every box. I see him pinning the girls now and I found him sleeping with 4 other rats when I got home from work, kinda tucked in the middle of them. I am glad he was able to bond with them, i think that will help him and me get through templeton's absence, which is still a major one. ' He is still mr groomer of the bunch, he will groom any rat that comes near him, he will even groom me. He plays still but you can tell he tires a bit easier. If a snack rattles or dinner time, he is front and center.

For now it is day by day with Loki, I am hoping for a lot more days with him because I cannot handle the thought of losing them both so close together. I am prepared though for whatever he gives me. I just pray that if he does have to leave me it is quietly in his sleep. Till then I will be loving on them when I let them out to play. Probably a little bit more since how short their lives are is really making itself apparent.

I am attached to all of the rats, but these first rats are a bit more embedded in my heart so it is a much harder blow when I lose them.