intro worry

[Tonz]

I know this has been posted about loads but in planning on introducing my lone male rat rfor who is about 4 months old, to my girls who about 17 months old. Iv had their cages next to each other for a few hours at a time, every day for 2 weeks and constantly for the last 2 days. They will stay next to each other until i introduce them. They have also shared the same play area, at seperate times, forbat least the last 2 months so they are all aware of each others smells.
they seem ok. Rfor goes crazy during out time (he was castrated 2/3 weeks ago) and tries to bite me but hasn't broken skin yet. It could be just rough play. Also, every now and again, when he has looking into the girls cage, he (and flip) both do a big jump, like theyve been frightened by something. I don't know why.

i plan on introducing them in the bathtub in about a week but am worried a fright will break out because of rfor going mad, crazy during out time when he can play with their toys and the jumping in the cages.
how quick can a fight become nasty? Will they fight straight away or sniff first? IM so worried about someone getting hurt.
also, flop has a breathing issue. She isn't on meds at min as vet wanted to see how she went without them for a while. She hasn't got much worse to be honest, so im not hugely worried but i am worried that the stress will make it worse..is this likely? IM calling the vet tomorrow to see if he will try one last round of baytril/doxy.
in so worried
tonz

 

[jorats]

Hi, sorry I missed this! I've moved it to the behaviour thread so I can stay on top of it.

I'm glad you mentioned that when Rfor tries to bite you, he doesn't break skin so this means he's not really trying to bite you. When a rat bites because he's aggressive, you'd be bleeding all over the place. So that's good news.

Fights can break out in a blink of an eye but this really shouldn't happen because they've been used to each other's smell for a while now.
Keep a towel ready so you can throw it on them if they go into a rat ball. Don't forget that many times, it can look like a bad rat fight when in fact nobody got hurt, this happens a lot.

Unfortunately, yes, your sick girl can become worse with the stress of intros. You might want to give it a bit more time to see how she does without her meds. Or start her on meds when you start intros.

 

[Dahlas]

There are MANY of here with more experience with intros then me...I have been lucky and mine have all gone pretty easy. I think taking things slow is the best bet.....letting the rats get used to each others smells first Having said that I have had a few cases that needed a little stress. I had two males that I put in a fairly large carrier and took for a long car drive...By the time it was over they where fast friends....and I had a pair a male and a spayed female that I put in a bath tub with a small bit of water...they huddled up together out of the water and never had a problem after that.
Of course you can not do this with a sick girl...she does not need any added stress.

 

[Tonz]

Hi, thanks for moving it, jo.
i have baytril and met cam from the vets for my poorly flop so ill start her on those tomorrow. My friend has been looking after my animals for the past few days as iv been away. Just found out that he moved rfors cage back to where it normally lives because he thought id accidentally left them next to each other after cleaning them out MEN! Ill move it back tomorrow whn i get home and wil start intros next week.
he hasn't broken the skin since been neutered but whn in sat on the floor or anywhere near him during out time he hops really high in the air and whips his head round to bite me if i touch him, yet its like he wants me to pet him COs he crawls onto my legs and into my hands. Very odd. When in holdin him he is fine. He licks my fingers and 'spacea out' when i tickle his cheeks.
is there anything i can do for flops stress?

 

[jorats]

When was rfor was neutered?
It sounds to me like rfor is scared of touches or maybe he doesn't see well at all and the back touches startle him. You could start to touch his back and give him a treat. This may desensitize him.
To make it less stressful for flop, I would make sure there's yummy food available and you nearby, allow her to be on your if need be.

 

[Tonz]

Ok. Got home this morning and flop was all puffed up. She's eating and drinking and was taking food from me and was climbing out of the cage as soon as it was open. Her fur is really puffy and her face looks swollen...but this maybe because her fur is puffy. I got antibiotics from the vet on Friday because her breathing got worse but it improved on its own before i started her on them. Her breathing is bad again and she's sucking in het sides a bit too. Iv given het .15ml of baytril and .25ml of metacam which is what the vet gave me and iv left her to sleep. Flip, her sister seems perfectly fine. Ot puffy, no noises no swelling so i don't think its sda. Its just puffyneas, could it be because of her breathing? Is there anything else i can give her to make her feel better? She will have out time later so ill see how she is walking but in the cage sahe was walking fine, holding food fine etc....
about 18 months old
Toni

 

[jorats]

It sounds like a severe respiratory issue. Can you also get doxy for her? Baytril alone may not be enough. She's having a real hard time.
In the meantime, you can try intros with rfor (how do you pronounce his name?) and with flip only. Leave flop out of the intros for now, she won't be able to handle it.

 

[Tonz]

I don't want to intro Flop with Rfor (R-for as in 'R' for rat, lol), I know she can't handle it. I will call the vets now and see what he says, see if I can add doxy to the mix. She is my darling. When I got her he spent the 1st 8 weeks down my top, poking her nose out looking for treats too scared to come out. We have a real bond (even though she doesn't like to be held anymore, she prefers to just sit by me and run around me) and she always comes to say hello when I walk by her cage. She licks my face and fingers and I swear she smiles at me when I give her her favourite tit bits.
She's always had breathing problems from the day I got her, has always been the smaller of the 2 sisters and the most shy but within the last 6 months has outgrown Flip and been more confident (comig out of the cage on her own and going up the stairs rather than just sitting at thebottom).
I will be heart broken if she has to leave me. She didn't wince when picked her up (as she was climbing out of the cage) so I don't think she is in much pain.
Toni

 

[Tonz]

I've called the vet. My usual vet is on holiday and the other vet is in surgery, she is going to call me back in an hour or so. I can make an appointment for tonight if I need to but I'm hoping she will let me have doxy

 

[jorats]

If you feel she's much worse, ask for Zithromax as well. She sounds like a real sweetie.

 

[Tonz]

I have a little bit of zithro left I think...probably only enough for about 5 doses though. Is it worth giving her this (even if I can't get anymore form the vets?) or will this make her worse when I take her off it? Can she have baytril, Doxy, Zithro AND metacam all at once? Or is it zithro OR Doxy? I don't think my vet will be up for giving anything else to be honest but I will try and get Doxy or Zithro - which is best?
She is a sweetie, she's adorable. Not an aggressive bone in her body. She just loves running around and is a total home girl, loves her cage and her bed!
Toni

 

[Tonz]

Vet has called me back and she said she doesn't think it is bacterial. Becasue Flop has always had breathing problems she said it is just bad scarring in the lungs. She said to keep her on the baytril and metacam and if these is no improvement by tomorrow I can go and get broncho dialator which apparantly is a pill that I can just give a small amount of to open up the airways (I expected it to be something like a nebuliser which is used for asthma - never heard of broncho dialator pills/powder).
So hopefully she will respond to something!

 

[jorats]

Aww, that's too bad. Try the bronchodialator then. But if she worsens I'd go back and beg the vet for Zithro. Cause really, she's got nothing to lose by trying a different abs.

 

[Tonz]

She said she will just build up a resistence to antibiotics, which I can understand. Over here in UK doctors don't give antibiotics to humans, lol. I went to docs (new docs) with tonsillitis the other day (I suffer with it a lot) andhe said 'it will get better by itself in a few weeks, you dont need penicillin again, becasue you will build up resistence to it!). So here I am, sort throat for over a week now and no antibiotics!

Do bronchdialators usually do a good job? Iv never really heard of them. If there is scarring and swelling in her lungs, surely it should help?

T

 

[jorats]

I agree with humans not needing antibiotics. We are building up a resistance to them and it's scary because one day we will need them and it won't work. It's bad enough that we are getting plenty of antibiotics through the meat we eat or any food containing animal products.

But with rats, they are different. Some may develop a resistance but for others, changing the abs or adding to it actually helps a great deal... that is if it's bacterial. Your vet could be right but she shouldn't be getting worse. If she gets better and then worse, that tells me something else is going on.

The bronchodialator should help open her lungs, her bronchi so she can take in deeper breaths. I have asthma and I'm on two inhalers at times and they do help, even in times of flu and colds so I would imagine this should help.

 

[Tonz]

Thanks, I had asthma as a child and when I had pneumonia a few years ago I had aninhaler than....I didn't think it helped but I was asleep most of the time...maybe it did and i was just been a wuss!

I'll do anything i can for her, I'm picking up more meds tonight (more baytril)soI can keep her going on it for a little longer. Vet also said to give Flip the Baytril, but not themetacam, and move Rfor away so theres no chance he an get it. I think I'll hold of on intros for everyone. If I intro Flip and Rfor, they can have playtime together once theyre friends but that will be it. They won't be able tolive together becasue of Flop. I might look for a little rescue for Rfor. Thingis, my cage is only big enoughfor 2 rats and people only want to give me 2...for obvious reasons, but this measnt eh cage is too small! i can't win!
Toni

 

[jorats]

I wouldn't give Flip any meds, not unless you think she needs it. rfor is already exposed so no need to move him away. If intros go smoothly with Flip, that could mean that rfor is a gentleman and you could at some point intro Flop. It's all a matter of less stress for Flop. If rfor is a sweetie with the girls, Flop might benefit from his addition. You will be the best judge of that. Flop will start to become used to rfor because she will smell him off of Flip when they go play together... makes for a smoother intro for her when the time comes.

 

[Tonz]

Just got home and flop isn't puffy anymore
i was really confused and thought it was flip sat on the hammock staring at me but nope, it was flop. No poofy fur and no noises....what is going on with my babies??!!

 

[jorats]

Rats with respiratory issues have good days and bad days, hopefully she'll have better days.

 

[Tonz]

Still all good here. All I can hear and all I have heard for 2 days is the water bottles, muching, grooming squeaks and scuttling around! No cooing, breathing squeaks, rattling or heavy breathing. The baytril seems to have worked it magic and Flop seems as happy as Larry (I so need a rat called larry now!) Just about to let them out for out time and clean their cage so will see how active she is (she sat in the castle last night (I'm sure she has stashed food in there somewhere and thats why she likes it so much in there!). She aslo comes straight to me now when I open the hallway door after out time. She won't let me pick her up still, but will let me pet her nose (maybe she thinks I'v got food - food motivates her!) and stroke her back and she's happy to jump all over me.
If she's happy, I'm happy.
Do you think it's safe to intro them ALL now? I was going to do Flip and Rfor tomorrow evening but now Flop is a bit better is it sensible to throw Flop into the mix too or will it still be too stressful?
Toni