I think my White Rat is falling ill - Please help

[mrintech]

Hello Everyone

Hope this message finds you in good health and spirits

I am from a very small city in India and currently I have 4 White Rats (All were born in the year 2010). I am in trouble and I need help/suggestions from your side.

On 6th of October 2012, one of my Rat named DON died because of Congestive Heart Failure or Acute Pneumonia or Old age. I am not sure at all, because the vets here are either NOT interested in looking Rats or they simply suggest medicines that are not prescribed for Rats at all. They even don't do proper checkups in any case. Maybe these vets are for big animals and I am unable to find any vet who is an exotic/small animal expert.

As of now, my only option is to take guidance online, as because No vets are available for Rats in my city and I feel they don't care at all. Rats are lab animals and they suggest random human medicines like they are experimenting. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

At that time, I was helpless and took guidance from an international vet on just answer (http://www.justanswer.com/pet/75mnb-hel ... years.html).

Right now, one of my Rat named GAAYE has started showing same symptoms like DON. He's male and his age is 2 Years and 6 Months. Both GAAYE and DON are brothers and were born on the same day (15 May 2010). His symptoms are as follows:

* He wants to sleep alone from other 3 most of the time
* He has started breathing labored. Please see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4fFiK7ybfw - Kindly note he's half asleep in this video. He's currently active rat.
* When I touch his chest, I can feel his heart beating rate is quite high
* I feel he has joints pain in hind legs, as he don't jump at all and also have trouble climbing. I can clearly see that he has got problems in back legs from past few weeks
* He has lost some weight

These were the same symptoms DON started showing when DON felt terribly ill in the starting of September 2012.

Before this, GAAYE never felt ill or had any type of problem, I can assure you. He's a very happy boy and licks my hands (clean) to show his love most of the time. He also sleeps on my hand and takes lots of caressing. Both DON and GAAYE are very close to my heart and I really feel very bad because I lost DON.

I immensely request you to please give me your valuable suggestions. If you need more information, I will provide you.

Thanks a lot

- Mrinmay, India

 

[hopefloats]

Most rats get HED in their back legs they usually start to walk funny and cannot jump as they used to. Can you print this out and take with you to the vets office?

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

It has all the meds and what it is good for.

You can usually tell heart problem their feet and tail will be colder than other rats around. Heart meds such as enalapril will help with heart problems.

 

[Moon]

I just want to touch on a few things that will hopefully help calm your mind a little bit if nothing else.

At 2 years 6 months old, you are dealing with very mature rats, if not elderly. In most of these animals you can usually expect some weight loss (as long as it is not too rapid). Also, many rats, especially males end up with what is called hind end degeneration. It is very common for them to move more slowly, to not jump around and to have trouble climbing. Many rats go so far as to completely lose control of their hind legs and end up dragging them behind them. When this starts happening we recommend altering their living environment/cage - adding more levels, and shallower ramps, plus more sleeping space on the ground level. He may also need your help with grooming and staying clean.

Without knowing how your cage is set up, is it possible that Gaaye just has trouble getting to where his cagemates are sleeping? Or, could it be that he was closer to Don and is still mourning his loss?

One very common affliction for rats is called Pulmonary Abscesses - when they get growths in the lungs. This can cause quite a bit of laboured breathing and discomfort. Heart problems and pneumonia are also unfortunately quite common. Take a good lok at Gaaye's feet, nose and mouth area. Are they a normal colour? If they are very pale or even have a blue tinge, this can be a symptom of heart problems.

There are other members who will be able to ask better questions to help you figure this out. Here is a link to a very good website called Rat Guide, it has a lot of information about health problems and medications with thorough case studies. http://ratguide.com/

 

[jorats]

You've got some really good responses from both Moon and hopelfloats.
Your little guy is an old manrat... good for you for having him live to such a wonderful old age. There's not much else for me to add, I'd just be repeating what Moon and hopefloats have already said.

BTW, welcome to the Rat Shack.

 

[mrintech]

Thanks a lot to both of you for your answers

I have been reading Rat Guide and RMCA websites for past 2 months and I have acquired lots of information. As I am not a doctor, so I always consult other experienced people (like you all) before doing anything.

Gaaye is eating food and drinking water normally and with lots of enthusiasm. He's quite active and I am worried because of his sudden labored breathing. You can say I am noticing it from past 2 days. His labored breathing is somewhat random! Sometimes it doesn't occur at all, but most of the time I can see him breathing like this.

After DON's death, Gaaye's behavior has changed a lot. I can see him sleeping and sitting alone. This doesn't mean he doesn't interact with other 3, but Gaaye don't act like he used to do when DON was alive.

All of them live in a cardboard box and keep destroying it. :lol: They freely roam in my room and from past 2 and a half years, none of them ever felt ill or had any type of physical problem (except sneezes sometimes). Same goes for DON, he also never felt ill, but passed away just after his first illness

There's NO blue tinge or red discharge (porphyrin) anywhere in Gaaye as of now.

I would like to ask following questions:

1. Here in my city (Bhopal) temperature changes very abruptly. Right now, it's winter and at night the temperature falls upto 10 degree Celsius. Do rats have this type of labored breathing symptoms because of sudden change in temperature/weather?

Somedays back, the temperature in my city was quite high, around 35 degree celcius. Also here it didn't rain properly.

2, Can I give him anti-biotics in very small dosages mixed with food to Gaaye?

Doxycycline 5 mg/kg BID PO (oral) for 10-30 days
Enrofloxacin (Baytril) 15 mg/kg BID, PO (oral) for 10-30 days

DON suffered for 1 month and fought very bravely. His condition was very pathetic as you can see in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAAbH6jC8YQ - He died because of lack of treatment and proper medicines. I really miss DON and I feel very guilty.

I really don't want to Gaaye and other 3 suffer like this.

 

[jorats]

Poor Don, he did have severe lung issues it seems.
From Gaaye's video, it doesn't appear to me that he's having that much trouble in breathing. But if your instinct is telling you that there is something off then trying doxy on him might help. Add Baytril if he gets worse or doesn't improve.
Temperature fluctuations are not good for rats but a gradual change is ok.

 

[Moon]

Any change in temperature and air quality can cause sneezing and wheezing for some animals, but not laboured breathing. Remember if you decide to dose antibiotics that you should do at least 21 days worth.

 

[SQ]

If he is having breathing problems, try various combos of antibiotics and if none help then try heart meds.
Rats do not necessarily show the previously mentioned symptoms when they have heart issues.
In my experience, heart issues such as chf are much more common then pulmonary abscesses .... so that may vary from area to area for various reasons.

Good combos for antibiotics are:
doxy + baytril
and azithromycin (10 mg to 15 mg/Ib) + baytril
If antibiotics are working, you wil want to keep your rattie on them for 6 weeks or longer.

For info re heart meds: if I try several combos of antibiotics and nothing works,
then I try benezapril or enalapril (0.25 mg/454.4 g twice a day) if this helps then there is a heart problem and atenolol (1 mg/454.4g twice a day) is added. Lasix is also given as needed, starting at 1-2mg/Ib twice a day

Not all heart problems cause the heart to become enlarged. Not all heart problems can be detected on an xray.
If the heart meds are helping then my rat is xrayed.
If the heart is enlarged as seen on the xray, then digoxin is added .... but only if the heart is enlarged.

also how to have rats pts is important:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9582

 

[Moon]

SQ is right, common ailments can really vary from area to area because of the bloodlines of the rats there.

 

[mrintech]

Hello Everyone

Thanks a lot for your precious responses

I have bought following medicines now:

1. Amoxycillin Oral Suspension IP

Each 5 ml of reconstituted suspension contains Amoxycillin Trihydrate IP, equivalent to Amoxycillin 125 mg

2. Doxycycline HCL and Lactic Acid Bacillus Capsules

Each hard gelatin capsule contains Doxycycline Hydrochloride IP, equivalent to Doxycycline 100 mg
Lactic Acid Bacillus excipients q.s - 60 million spores


......

I am unable to find baytril as of now, but I will go to some big medicine shop and try to find/arrange it.

So, should I give above medicines with food/water to Gaaye?

I think I can mix Amoxycillin solution with fresh water.....

Also, I think I can give Doxycycline (powder inside capsule) with food to Gaaye.

So should I follow the dosages mentioned in these pages OR I have to reduce the dosages:

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_ ... cillin.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_ ... ycline.php

I can see labored breathing in gaaye a bit increased as of now

Kindly help and thanks again for your time and help

 

[EDK]

I'm no expert with how much to give ratties in meds so I'll leave that up to the more experted ladies here but just remember, you little man is an old man now, its expected he's gonna have some struggles. But rest assured, you are in good hands on this forum. I hope he does better soon.

 

[lilspaz68]

Hi there,

The medications you have will work for now

You have 25 mg/ml amoxicillin and we can work out the doxy caplets.

How much does your rat weigh? This is vital in figuring out his dosage. also can you get a hold of some sweet syrup (for eg. I use strawberry or vanilla Nesquik, a syrup you mix with milk to make a sweet drink for people)

With a 100 mg doxy pill you would need to use 5 ml's of liquid (I use the above as a mixture of half syrup, half water) to make it taste better...doxycycline is VERY bitter.

 

[mrintech]

Thanks everyone for your replies you guys are awesome :joy:

Hi there,

The medications you have will work for now

You have 25 mg/ml amoxicillin and we can work out the doxy caplets.

How much does your rat weigh? This is vital in figuring out his dosage. also can you get a hold of some sweet syrup (for eg. I use strawberry or vanilla Nesquik, a syrup you mix with milk to make a sweet drink for people)

With a 100 mg doxy pill you would need to use 5 ml's of liquid (I use the above as a mixture of half syrup, half water) to make it taste better...doxycycline is VERY bitter.

I don't know the exact weight of GAAYE, but I will try to get a weighing machine tomorrow.

As of now, I have given 0.5 ml of Amox to Gaaye (I measured it using a syringe). It was sweet, so he licked it without any problem

Also, I gave him around 1.5 mg of doxy with flour dough and he ate it too

I will also buy the juice you suggested and will make the mixture

Thanks a lot

P.S. I licked both medicines to determine their tastes :mrgreen:

 

[lilspaz68]

1.5 mg of doxy might be not enough.

Doxy is usually based on 5 mg/kg and if he's a boy I am sure he's over a lb, so he would get at least 2.5 mg/lb...so you need to give him more. How did you figure out 1.5 mg out of a 100 mg tablet?

 

[mrintech]

Doxy is usually based on 5 mg/kg and if he's a boy I am sure he's over a lb, so he would get at least 2.5 mg/lb...so you need to give him more. How did you figure out 1.5 mg out of a 100 mg tablet?

I am telling approximately Maybe I gave him less

Actually it's 3:19 AM here NOW and I posted about medicines around 9:30 PM last night. I was waiting for replies, but Gaaye labored breathing was bit high, so I decided to give him the medicines.

If I make a sweet mixture you said in above post, how much ml I have to give to Gaaye? He's a boy and I also assumed he weighs over 500 grams while giving him the medicines

Thanks

 

[mrintech]

I got it: around 0.13 ml of doxy :emb:

 

[lilspaz68]

And therein lies the problem...your 3:19 am is my 5:19 pm...

OK let's guesstimate a weight of 525 grams for your boy.

The amoxy would be - .46 ml twice a day (good guess!!)

The doxy (if made with 5 ml's of solution) would .13 ml twice a day.

 

[mrintech]

And therein lies the problem...your 3:19 am is my 5:19 pm...

OK let's guesstimate a weight of 525 grams for your boy.

The amoxy would be - .46 ml twice a day (good guess!!)

The doxy (if made with 5 ml's of solution) would .13 ml twice a day.

Thanks a lot

What to do with rest of the solution? Refrigerate it? and for how many days it remains fine?

Also, in the bottle of AMOXY, it is written, if you refrigerate the solution (full plastic bottle), then you need to use it within 4 days. which is not possible at all. :rant:

 

[lilspaz68]

Its most likley a typo and should be 14 days...don't worry too much, even if it expires the efficacy will slowly lessen not all at once stop working.

Put the bottles in the fridge, the doxy should be tossed and made up again at about 5 days.

 

[mrintech]

Thanks a lot :dance:

I should sleep now as it's 4:15 AM here

Have a great day