Humping spayed female?

[mia9_28]

I am in the middle of introducing Diego + Casper to Ryder + Milo + Keno + Toby... and Casper has been the trouble maker, always challenging the other boys and chasing Toby (the female) around... but today he took it to a whole other level: he started humping her....

At that point, I grabbed him and punished him.

Is he just dumb or what? :emb:
He has sniffed her down there a million times... he must know by now that she is not sexually active.. lol

I have always been protective of Toby during intros as all the boys always try to sniff her down there.. and well... she gets chased around, the poor thing... and today, Casper just angered me by doing that. I find it so disrespectful... I know it's natural instinct but jeez! She's been introduced to 6 boys in total and it's the first time a male does that to her.

Him chasing Toby around seems to bother Ryder, Milo and Keno as they come up to defend her when she squeaks because of Casper.. and then a fight starts... :wallbang:

I know the easy way out is to neuter him, especially since he is young and full of hormones... but he has heart problems.. so I don't want to risk it.

Any advice?? :gaah:

 

[EDK]

Naughty boy, I'd be annoyed too if my big boys decided to do that to my two little hairless girls, and they are neutered so that'd be teh funny thing lol!

But dang um... I can't help but say try to neuter him would be the best option, despite the risk. Sadly theres always a risk, even if he didn't have health problems, that or...well keep him away from her at all times and wait till he settles down? Not sure, i'm hoping others have better suggestions

 

[victoria]

Mounting isn't only sexually motivated, it can be a sign of dominance. I would let it go a bit, they do need to work out a hierarchy, but not to the point that she gets injured or is constantly being pestered. You may find Toby gets fed up and pins him and that will be the end of it.

Don't punish your rats when they're doing something you don't find desirable. You're only going to teach them to be afraid of you and when you're not around they may do it anyway. If he's really being a jerk you can try dominant pinching (not punishment but reminding him that YOU are in charge) or positive reinforcement.

 

[mia9_28]

But dang um... I can't help but say try to neuter him would be the best option, despite the risk. Sadly theres always a risk, even if he didn't have health problems, that or...well keep him away from her at all times and wait till he settles down? Not sure, i'm hoping others have better suggestions

Yeah.. I've thought about neutering him anyway, as his heart is still pretty good as he is still young and active.. but then I find that I would be risking his life for a selfish reason: It's me who wants all my rats in a single group. He could very well live the remainder of his life alone with Diego. If he was to pass away during surgery, I would definitely feel responsible for it.
I know what you mean with "there's always a risk", but the risk with him is higher, so that definitely makes me feel uncomfortable. Especially considering that my vet here has only done 1 rat neuter (on Diego), and despite him making it through, I don't think she is experienced enough to perform surgery on a less-than-perfectly-healthy rat. Know what I mean? lol
I do have another vet about 4 hours away who is extremely experienced with surgery on rats... so I could maybe see with him if he feels like Casper would do well in surgery.

Mounting isn't only sexually motivated, it can be a sign of dominance. I would let it go a bit, they do need to work out a hierarchy, but not to the point that she gets injured or is constantly being pestered. You may find Toby gets fed up and pins him and that will be the end of it.

I thought that it might have been dominant... but she really isn't a threat to him so he has no reason to try and dominate her, in my opinion. He's the one who's been chasing her every where.. lol

I hope she pins him down! She is surely not afraid to pin her boys! lol

If he's really being a jerk you can try dominant pinching (not punishment but reminding him that YOU are in charge) or positive reinforcement.

That is his "punishment" lol
I will pin him to the ground, to show him I'm boss, when he starts fights with the others or is being way too pushy with Toby. But today I put him back in the cage as he disgusted me.. lol

 

[EDK]

That is his "punishment" lol
I will pin him to the ground, to show him I'm boss, when he starts fights with the others or is being way too pushy with Toby. But today I put him back in the cage as he disgusted me.. lol

Dude he's just a rat, rats do what they were born to do, granted he may be annoying your girl and you find it rude and disgusting, but he's an animal at the end of the day and he's reacting on instinct or dominance. Not trying to sound discouraging, but i wouldn't call his behavior 'disgusting'. Maybe annoying and just needs some straightening out, have a little patience with the little guy, he's your rattie too as much as is Toby right? lol

 

[jorats]

Keep in mind that spayed girls can perform. Mamarat had a couple of hussies who would present themselves to the males and allow a full on experience.
I'd leave them be, especially if you see her doing little hops in front of him. That means she likes him lots.

 

[mia9_28]

Dude he's just a rat, rats do what they were born to do, granted he may be annoying your girl and you find it rude and disgusting, but he's an animal at the end of the day and he's reacting on instinct or dominance. Not trying to sound discouraging, but i wouldn't call his behavior 'disgusting'. Maybe annoying and just needs some straightening out, have a little patience with the little guy, he's your rattie too as much as is Toby right? lol

I know he's an animal... but to me it's rape as Toby was clearly trying to run away from him.

He's my girlfriend's rat, not mine. I can't say I'm especially attached to him.
Toby is my rat.

 

[mia9_28]

Keep in mind that spayed girls can perform. Mamarat had a couple of hussies who would present themselves to the males and allow a full on experience.
I'd leave them be, especially if you see her doing little hops in front of him. That means she likes him lots.

I had read about that a while back.. but Toby isn't doing little hops.. she is squeaking and running for cover.

Anyways, I was just looking for some advice on how to make him stop that. :/

 

[EDK]

Well just take Jorats advice, let them be, relax, of course help out Toby if she gets annoyed too much, don't "punish" your other rat or ratties just for feeling what they feel. Push the trouble maker away, or snatch up Toby until the others settle down and try try again. Sometimes intros take time, its a tedious process but if you have patience, understanding and support all ratties involved, it will be worth it, and before you know it they will all be snuggled together in a hammie! :giggle:

 

[mia9_28]

Well just take Jorats advice, let them be, relax, of course help out Toby if she gets annoyed too much, don't "punish" your other rat or ratties just for feeling what they feel. Push the trouble maker away, or snatch up Toby until the others settle down and try try again. Sometimes intros take time, its a tedious process but if you have patience, understanding and support all ratties involved, it will be worth it, and before you know it they will all be snuggled together in a hammie! :giggle:

Yeah, I have done lots of intros (9). I had a rat who would viciously attack other rats' tails, despite his neuter.. and I was successful at introducing him to other rats, so I know what patience is! lol
I just hate to see Toby get mounted like that.

It's time to introduce them again.. so I'll see how Casper behaves this time.

 

[EDK]

Naughty casper! Behave! lol

 

[jorats]

When males and females are together, it's usually the female who decides if and when the humping gets done. After about a week of constant trying he should get the message. She needs to be stronger in telling him off. How old is she and how old is the male?
Animals can't rape really. They need to be presented and open themselves up to it. Only humans engage in rape. Even in dog matings, some females won't allow it so it's the humans who place her in a rape hold for the male.

 

[mia9_28]

The intro yesterday went well for a while... and then he started harassing and humping Toby again.. but she fought back this time. Every time she'd turn her back, he's jump her and the poor thing would constantly have to fight him off... and she's a small girl! lol
Then his hormones went way out of hand and she started humping all the boys.. hahaha
That didn't go well and him and Ryder got in a fight and now Ryder has a slit on his lower eyelid (I only noticed later during the intro). :'(
Once I noticed the injury and that Ryder wasn't feeling so well.. I ended the intro.

Now I'm definitely considering neuter... haha
To be fair though, his breathing isn't noisy anymore. He sounds completely healthy, and he's not on Lasix anymore. I'm sure as he ages, he will need Lasix again though. He is only 7-8 months old. What do you guys think?

 

[Poisoned]

Just my unprofessional opinion, but it seems to me that you pinching/hurting him, and pinning him is going to make him even more insecure and make him feel the need to bully the others out of his insecurity.

I really don't think rape is a concept for animals. And I doubt it is sexual - she was most likely the easiest to dominate. And as I'm sure you know, this is a prime age for buttheadedness with males. Neutering would probably help.

I don't agree really with breeding stands for dogs, though there are legit reasons for them. It's not so humans can live out rape fantasies like most AR nuts want you to think. Some people do abuse breeding stands just like any other tool.

 

[EDK]

I say if you see an opening for a neuter go for it, but its up to you wats right for your ratties, good luck! I hope the intros go smoother, maybe its just one of those that take longer then most, bummer *sulks*

 

[jorats]

Poisoned, the pinching is not really a pinching, it's more of a scruff grab and honestly, it's have more of a calming effect than a dominating thing.

I'd be a little concerned about the neuter, especially if he needed the lasix in the past but then, a neuter might do his heart a world of good by removing extra stress. Check to see what your vet recommends.

 

[Poisoned]

Poisoned, the pinching is not really a pinching, it's more of a scruff grab and honestly, it's have more of a calming effect than a dominating thing.

So, what exactly do people do? Just gently lift the scruff or what? Since he used the word 'punishment' to describe it, you can imagine what I thought.
I can't imagine the pinning him down thing is positive, though. No animal ever would like being held down against his will.

 

[victoria]

It's no different than when the alpha rat pins another in the colony to establish their dominance. You're just doing it in a language they understand. Often, aggressive rats are that way because they are afraid - knowing there is someone else in charge and to protect them will actually reassure them. It's no different than pinning a dog on their back when they try to mount you - you're not hurting them, just telling them 'no'.

Search 'dominant pinching' on the forum for a more detailed explanation.

 

[Poisoned]

It's no different than when the alpha rat pins another in the colony to establish their dominance. You're just doing it in a language they understand. Often, aggressive rats are that way because they are afraid - knowing there is someone else in charge and to protect them will actually reassure them. It's no different than pinning a dog on their back when they try to mount you - you're not hurting them, just telling them 'no'.

Search 'dominant pinching' on the forum for a more detailed explanation.

God no, don't try that alpha rolling stuff with dogs. Cesar Milan has gotten so many people hurt, and so many dogs ruined by spreading that crap around, it's outdated and helps nothing. Dogs in nature do not do that, if a dog has to fight to pin another dog on it's back, it's because they're in a real all-out fight and it will cause panic in the dog being pinned, it's going to have a fight response, it giving up is it's way of finally saying "Okay, look, I'm nice, please don't hurt me." It's not a dog saying "Ohh, you wanted me to do this!" No.. A dog who understands who their leader is willing submits and is submissive just to appease you - they don't have to be rolled over or forced to do anything. Same as face-licking, low-tail wagging, looking away, etc. All calming signals. That's why I questioned this practice with rats - I know it's bad with dogs. And I know rats are actually rather similar to training dogs, just a bit more slow and you have to be much more clear with what you want.


It really sounds like his hormones are getting the best of him. I would discuss it with my vet thoroughly, though. About the neuter. And good luck with whatever you do.

 

[jorats]

It's no different than when the alpha rat pins another in the colony to establish their dominance. You're just doing it in a language they understand. Often, aggressive rats are that way because they are afraid - knowing there is someone else in charge and to protect them will actually reassure them. It's no different than pinning a dog on their back when they try to mount you - you're not hurting them, just telling them 'no'.

Search 'dominant pinching' on the forum for a more detailed explanation.

God no, don't try that alpha rolling stuff with dogs. Cesar Milan has gotten so many people hurt, and so many dogs ruined by spreading that crap around, it's outdated and helps nothing. Dogs in nature do not do that, if a dog has to fight to pin another dog on it's back, it's because they're in a real all-out fight and it will cause panic in the dog being pinned, it's going to have a fight response, it giving up is it's way of finally saying "Okay, look, I'm nice, please don't hurt me." It's not a dog saying "Ohh, you wanted me to do this!" No.. A dog who understands who their leader is willing submits and is submissive just to appease you - they don't have to be rolled over or forced to do anything. Same as face-licking, low-tail wagging, looking away, etc. All calming signals. That's why I questioned this practice with rats - I know it's bad with dogs. And I know rats are actually rather similar to training dogs, just a bit more slow and you have to be much more clear with what you want.


It really sounds like his hormones are getting the best of him. I would discuss it with my vet thoroughly, though. About the neuter. And good luck with whatever you do.

I totally agree with you on the Cesar Millan thing. I think he does more harm than good, spreading misinformation.
But with rats, they do pin their betas and omegas. Rats absolutely do have a hierarchy. Back in the day, I was taught the dominant pinching as a dominant move, me being alpha. It works like a charm. But I no longer pinch, I wrap like a blanket, like the thunder blanket for dogs but with my hand and gently squeeze down. I've found that to be more effective.
I'll need to re-word my original post about the dominant pinching.