HELP! Tonight's Intro's Went Very Badly . . .

[PiedPiper]

I've used baby cereal, which is an all time favorite around here, in all of my intros. No one has ever immediately gone straight to chowing down on it in the first meeting. They had to smell everyone, some grooming, some pinning, even a tussle. It wasn't until everyone had settled down that anyone did more than take a sniff or two of the cereal.

Thanks, Kat. That's good to know.

The fact the older boys made no aggressive moves prior to the scuffle, I'm not 100% sold that it was aggression on their part. Gina, you said you saw no sidling, no poofing, no chattering.. Nothing that said 'I'm not happy about this.' The fight just erupted out of nowhere. While I know that fights can break out without much warning, if they were that aggressive not to even try switching hammocks, why no warnings?

No. No outward signs that all hell was about to break loose. But, there could've been subtle signs that I missed due to my inexperience with rattie body language. All I saw was a lot of milling around and some sniffing.

The cages are near to each other, but they're not huffing and poofing at the bars. So, no, I'm not 100% sold that it's aggression.

The cages are very close to each other (without the two camps being able to reach or touch each other) and no my big boys are not huffing, poofing, foaming at the mouth or shouting, "lemme at'em, Mom!"

If they react badly to a hammock switch - as in they become chattering evil Teademons - then I'd be more convinced, at which point other options will have to be taken.

Yes, I think you should switch everyone's cloth around, Baby to Big Boy and Big Boy to Baby. If the Big Boys become chattering, poofy demons, then don't switch the babies' stuff in there just yet. Keep their cages near each other, since smelling them in the room will get them accustomed to their scent, to an extent. Same goes for everyone having the same play area, just different times. Make sure the little ones can't get to the big cage. Like I said previously, it'll help with the whole "OMG! Intruder!" reaction.

Yes, okay. Can I do that tonight? Or just give them all a chance to settle for a bit?

You could go ahead and start Rooi on a low dose of Baytril if it is an abscess, and it may resolve itself with no need for any further treatment.

My rat vet won't prescribe any antib's without seeing them first. Should I take him in?

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[jennifervb]

. . . and poor little Rooi ended up with a gash on his side. :sad3:

To re-cap, last night I moved the R695 where the babies are housed down into the Rat Room next to the big boys' FN (but not within touching distance). Today, I dabbed them all with vanilla, put them in the bathtub with a big pan of banana flavoured pablum, armed myself with a towel, a thick pair of gloves and a thin book, set the timer for five minutes and prayed that it all would go well. Well, my prayers went unanswered. There was a lot of milling around and sniffing for about 4 minutes and 55 seconds and then all hell broke loose. When it was over, the big boys were all foofed up to about five times their normal size and the poor babies were frozen in place like statues. It was only when I started frantically gathering up the babies to put them back in their carrier that I noticed that we had an injury.

Poor Rooi "seems" to be okay. He is eating and carrying on like normal. His gash is no longer bleeding. I did try to clean him up as best I could but he still looks a mess. So what happens now? Do we stop for a while? Do we continue? Do the boys kiss their spectacular sets of goolies goodbye? We're all very shaken and my confidence in myself has just been shattered. I feel terrible that I could have allowed this to happen. I'm a wreck. :cry3:

Help.

Patience is key here Gina!!! Don't let it get to you!!!

I had only 4 days of intros with Ben and Basil but intros between Albert and Roquefort took almost a month (neutering them both was vital!) and then the intros between all four was similar to your experience! 20 minutes of relative peace in the bathtub and then all hell broke loose!!! Roquefort got his toes bitten and left bloody little pawprints all over my bathtub! It was a rolicking, frolicking mess of whirlwind fur and feet and I was in such a state of shock that it took me a minute to figure out which rat to grab first!!!! :shock:

I did not, however, let any time lapse in between intros! The very next evening the four little attitude problems were, again, sharing the bathtub together. Come hell or high water, I was not going to spend the next 2-3 years cleaning out 3 separate cages!

You have to be strong sweetie! They have got to figure out the pecking order and that won't happen if you are too protective of them.

The only time I will interrupt the intro process is when a little face has been neutered. No direct intros until the incisions are healed. You may want to shield Rooi until his gash looks significantly better. When he is looking good then add him back in.

Whatever you do, don't kill yourself over this! Trust me, intros can be the worst possible nightmares rat parents can experience! Have faith! The boys will figure it out. :hugs:

 

[Jennw]

I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with intro's. Bart has three good gashes, and Manny has a sliced ear.

Little Bart was SO mad at me after the fight. He went back in his cage, face into the corner, and would do nothing but show me his butt for an hour. Finally, I guess he had sulked long enough, he came and gave me a little parting lick, and went to bed.

Oh, the stress. People think those of us with just furkids and no real kids have no responsibilities and no stress. Right!

 

[lj]

I hear you guys. Stress! LOL. I've been working on integrating the screamers with Neville for a week now. Still not feeling comfortable about leaving them in the new cage alone yet. Keep positive. It will happen.

 

[PiedPiper]

Patience is key here Gina!!! Don't let it get to you!!!

I can't help it, Jenn. I really blame myself over this.

I had only 4 days of intros with Ben and Basil but intros between Albert and Roquefort took almost a month (neutering them both was vital!) and then the intros between all four was similar to your experience! 20 minutes of relative peace in the bathtub and then all hell broke loose!!! Roquefort got his toes bitten and left bloody little pawprints all over my bathtub! It was a rolicking, frolicking mess of whirlwind fur and feet and I was in such a state of shock that it took me a minute to figure out which rat to grab first!!!! :shock:

Yes! That's exactly what happened with me, but only after about five minutes! When it was over, we were all panting and frozen with shock!

I did not, however, let any time lapse in between intros! The very next evening the four little attitude problems were, again, sharing the bathtub together.

You have to be strong sweetie! They have got to figure out the pecking order and that won't happen if you are too protective of them.

I'm sorry, Jenn - you've been such a great friend to me and I truly appreciate that you're trying to help, but my instinct is telling me that's not the way to go. Let's not forget that my boys are hardly on the same playing field. The big boys are about eight months old and the babies are only about three months - not exactly what you would call an even match. Besides, I'll admit it, right now my confidence level is zero. I just don't have the courage to go there again . . . not that fast anyway. I think I'm just going to stick with the leaving them in the same room and switching fleece routine for a little while

Whatever you do, don't kill yourself over this! Trust me, intros can be the worst possible nightmares rat parents can experience! Have faith! The boys will figure it out. :hugs:

I honestly had no idea it could be so traumatic (and I'm not the one that's bleeding). I have been brought to my knees.

 

[lj]

Darn Gina,

Why'd you have to live so far away. I'd come up and be there for you (or try to).

 

[PiedPiper]

Awww, thanks. You all have been incredible about this.

I'm not about to screw this up anymore than I already have so Rooi is all set to go to the vet tomorrow. Is it Baytril that I should be asking for? What dose and for how long?

Thanks again for everything!

 

[user 78]

They'll weigh him and should give you a dose from that. If you want to double check the dosage, come back on here and let us know his weight and what the concentration of your medication is. Baytril's the best med for abscesses, since it's a very broad spectrum antibiotic.

 

[PiedPiper]

How long should he be on it for? Two weeks? Three weeks?

And thanks again, Kat.

 

[user 78]

You want him on it for atleast 2 weeks. If it's resolved itself by then, you can stop it. If it's still open I'd keep him on it until 3-4 weeks.

 

[PiedPiper]

Kat, if you would be patient with me for just a minute longer. What if it turns out to be just swelling . . . not an abscess? Should I insist on a course of antibiotics anyway?

 

[user 78]

Rat bites abscess 99% of the time.. My bet is that your vet will agree it's an abscess. If, for whatever reason, your vet says it's just swelling, then it'll be fine. Even if it does turn out to be an abscess, it won't be traumatic for Nat to see to him while you're gone.

 

[jorats]

I've never had a gash/cut swell up, if it started to swell, it always turned into an abscess. But I have to say, almost all the cuts and gashes didn't abscess.

 

[PiedPiper]

So just to give you all an update. The baby-TEAs had their out time in the common Rat Room first. We limited them to just the large desk and table area (not the floor area) as they are still very skittish, haven't learned to enjoy handling yet and most definitely don't come when you call them. In fact, the only response I seem to get from them when I call them is, "take cover!" or "head for the hills!" After about an hour, I rounded up the babes and let out the brat-TEAs who, by the way, did not seem to be at all disturbed by the fact that the baby-TEAs were out on their turf. They were hanging out by the bars but not in a screaming epithets, lemme at'em, I'm going to tear him limb from limb kind of way, just in hey, it's out time, what's taking you so long to open the doors kind of way. Da boyz ran around and did their thing for a while but then I pretty much spent the rest of their out time having to redirect them away from the Martins. They were hell bent on getting at that cage alright and I'd be willing to bet the farm that they weren't just being neighbourly. On the bright side, as determined as they were to get at that cage, while all this was going on the boys were not poofed up or taking their frustration at not being able to get at the "intruders" out on each other or on me.

Does anyone have any observations or comments? Since I'm in no hurry for a repeat of last night's fiasco, I'm quite willing to carry on like this until someone tells me it's time to move on to the next step. Tomorrow is "cleaning day" so I'll do the switcheroo of the dirty fleece thing and will let you know how that goes.

By the way, Rooi looks 100% better! :joy: He really did a wonderful job of cleaning himself up and the swelling I was freaking out over this morning has gone down! In fact, you'd be hard pressed to notice that anything was wrong at all, but I'm still keeping our appointment tomorrow though, just in case.

Thanks again to everyone for all your help and support. Please let me know your thoughts about tonight's proceedings.

 

[jorats]

It sounds like everything is going according to plan. Very good news that the boys didn't get upset, this might change things. But since you are going on vacation, I'd hold off with intros until you came back, then start.

 

[SQ]

btw all the liverpool ratties were responding to the word "treat".
They know it means come quick, there are good things like peas for you.

 

[PiedPiper]

It sounds like everything is going according to plan. Very good news that the boys didn't get upset, this might change things. But since you are going on vacation, I'd hold off with intros until you came back, then start.

They weren't getting upset with me or each other, but they sure were determined to investigate their old cage. But I guess that's normal and to be expected, hunh? We'll definitely take it slow until we get back and then we'll take another look at getting the two different camps together.

Thanks again, Jo!

 

[PiedPiper]

btw all the liverpool ratties were responding to the word "treat".
They know it means come quick, there are good things like peas for you.

Thanks, Holly! I think you already told me that but I had forgotten! I'll continue to use that - they're smart little boys and I'm sure they'll start to respond to me soon! They're gonna have to as I'm bound and determined to make friends with them!

 

[user 78]

I think it would have been the "Oh, what's that?! what's that smell?!!" sort of determination. For reference, Shelagh uses these mesh grids, with a really tight grid, to keep the rats from climbing the cages. I'd keep up with what you're doing. Make sure the let the Older Teas play up on the desk where the little Teas were so that the smells are all there.



We need a "need coffee" smiley, hehehe

 

[Moon]

If I were you, I'd grab some coroplast (or something similar) to surround the bottom of the cage. I have done it before to keep the cages less interesting to the cats.