Having trouble with intros! Advice and encouragment needed!

[mrnixonpants]

I posted this in the inros sticky but it was suggested to me that I make my own thread for this issue I'm having.

I'm feeling really discouraged. I've been intro'ing my new girl (well got her in October) Hadley to my existing 3 rats Derby, Brinkley, and Fievel. We've been taking things really slow. First the bathroom which they never play in, then free ranging in the bedroom which they rarely have ever played in, and we haven't made it to the couch which they always play on.

Hadley seems to get along with Fievel great! I mean they wrestle around a bit still, but it's all normal dominance wrestling and maybe playing - nothing seriously violent.

With Brinkley and Derby (my oldies) things are a completely different story. They don't seem to get along much at all. She seems different towards them than Fievel. More aggressive. Up until now no one had gotten seriously hurt. I read that with difficult intros sometimes getting them all together in a carrier and taking a scary car ride helps to bond everyone. We had a vet appointment tonight and were going to take a car ride anyway so I decided why not give it a shot? Well they all did great on the way to the vet and at the vet, but on the way home I heard a squeak. Brinkley has a pretty large gash on his shoulder.

Now I'm feeling really discouraged and upset and I'm afraid to even get them together again because of how icky his wound looks. It's a pretty deep gash. Derby got a little wound on her nose too, but nothing nearly as bad as Brinkley's. Maybe it was too long a meeting together. Or maybe too stressful for everyone (I brought a different carrier but everyone was doing so well I thought things were going great and it'd be okay to let them ride home together too)

I feel so dumb and upset. How do I move past this? I'm afraid to continue on with intros now and I know when I get upset/nervous the rats can tell and everyone is on edge. I know the no blood no foul rule....should I just assume that they won't be able to get along? Ugh I'm so completely upset right now. Difficult intros can be so discouraging and just make you feel so bad.

I guess I'm posting for advice but also to vent.

Edited to add: We gave her time to settle in before starting intros and started with cages near eachother, and swapping laundry before we tried actual face to face intros.

Derby - 25 month spayed female
Brinkley - 23 month neutered male
Fievel - 14 month neutered male
Hadley - 5 month spayed female (she's the newbie)

It may also be helpful to add that I adopted Hadley from a petsmart (did not pay for her) because she was "too aggressive" to be with the other rats. What actually happened was they got a shipment of new rats in, threw them into her cage, and wondered why she got "aggressive". They put her in the back in isolation to be sold as a single rat and I just couldn't not take her home. She's been doing great with Fievel and I don't want to give up on her. I believe she deserves to have friends!

 

[jorats]

Ohhhh. That really helps with Hadley's past. Poor girl. You are going to need to super socialize her and reinforce good behaviour.
Ok, so during intros, when she goes near the other ones and when she turns away from them without touching them, click your tongue and give a small yummy treat like half a cheerio.
When you see her about to jump/attack another rat, you put your hand in between with a towel and say no. Put your hand/towel over her body and gently squeeze down, kind of like a full body hug. Hold for 2 seconds and release. She might squeek like crazy but don't let her get out from under you. She's released only when you release her.

 

[mrnixonpants]

Ugh... I'm just so scared that someone is gonna get hurt again. The gash on Brinkley is so nasty and deep it's not like she just gave him a warning nip. It's like she was trying to slit his throat!!

I'm continuing to let her free range with Fievel I hope that's not a bad idea. Should I start the positive reinforcement now while she's with Fievel? I'm going to wait until Brinkley heals before I attempt any more intros with them.

She's not a bad rat, she's just damaged from her past. If I have to keep her as a single and continue to let her have out time with Fievel until my oldies pass I will - but even then I'd be deathly afraid to intro any new rats with her.

Anyone with difficult intro experience feel free to chime in! I need to hear that this has happened to someone else and turned out okay.

And what about no blood no foul? Does that mean I should be giving up on her getting along with my oldies or does that just mean things went too far?

 

[EDK]

My boy Gyro has an ugly past of well...he was aggressive when it came to new rats from the very start...he unintentionally killed an adopted rat I got from the shelter, who was an older, un-neutered boy who was also the aggressior as well, and i had rushed the intros so.. it was a sad day.

That said, I got all my boys neutered, and when I got the girls, and after a short quarintine, I put their cages close together, and for two weeks I let them get used to each others scents. Gyro at one point got so huffy with the girls he bit Lyra through the bars, I was so scared she lost a finger! Luckily she didn't, it was a small nip. I slowed down the intros even more, boys weren't allowed to go near the girls cage, just sniff from afar. After that I introed in the scary area, aka my bathtub. One boy at a time would meet the girls for a few minutes, to which I increased later on if I saw it was going well. Gyro needed a little more insurence, I had to let him know I was there and I wasn't gonna let anything happen to him. When I saw he'd get puffy or hiss, I'd push the girls away from him, or I'd take him away from the girls and give him firm strokes, letting him know I was there and I wasn't gonna let those tiny girls hurt him ever.

That worked so well (thanks to Jorats advice too!) that I was able to let the girls go into the main cage with the boys within the end of the month, and here they are today! Snuggling, playing and sleeping together. Slow and steady wins the race

 

[mrnixonpants]

That's good to hear that your boy was able to join the group eventually! I'm very thankful that Brinkley only got a nasty bite and no more damage was done.

Here's a thread with pictures of the bite wound just in case anyone wants to know how serious the bite was :

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=32629

 

[jorats]

I'm glad I checked out the ****oo thread. So that tells me that she's not really out to kill or is aggressive really. She might be a bully but I wouldn't say aggressive. That wound is superficial plus he's on a nakie, it wouldn't look that bad on a furried guy.

 

[mrnixonpants]

So it should be safe to continue with intros?

At what point should I step in and say hey things are getting out of hand? I know they are going to wrestle at some point, I'm afraid I'll be too nervous to let them sort it out themselves.

EDIT : Just had a very successful bathroom intro with no trouble at all. I think I'm going to back it up to the bathroom floor stage again for about a week before continuing back into the bedroom. :thumbup:

 

[jorats]

EDIT : Just had a very successful bathroom intro with no trouble at all. I think I'm going to back it up to the bathroom floor stage again for about a week before continuing back into the bedroom. :thumbup:

That's a good idea.

 

[EDK]

I was scared too when my naike girls were getting scratches and nip like leasions, but really they are just play fighting, and since they don't have fur, the cuts are more visible. Fur helps to protect their skin and their skin is as sensitive as ours, I wasn't aware one of your kiddies that got 'bit' was a hairless, glad I looked, I think you're ok.

If you hear hissing, really loud hissing from your ratties, or they puff up (with furries they double in size like a porcipine) for hairless rats they hunch their backs up like a cat nearly lol, that's a sign to step in before someone lashes out. Ratties hiss or puff up to look and sound bigger, a sign they are angry, nervous or scared, its a defensive thing my Gyro does when he's had enough, thats the first stage before someone gets hurt. You see it or hear it, put your hand in and push away whoever is causing it.

 

[mrnixonpants]

Okay so I realize this is an old topic, but I'm still having trouble with intros. I've been trying for months now (face to face since the beginning of Dec) and just when I think things are going good, there's bloodshed.

Hadley got Fievel pretty good last time and it turned into a big abscessed mess. I feel really discouraged and frusturated and sometimes like I'm just not a good enough or experienced enough rat owner to handle this. This leaves me with all sorts of questions :

Is it fair to keep putting my other kids through this stressful process?
Is she just not meant to have friends?
Is it wrong to give up on her? EDIT : I shouldn't have said give up on her. I meant give up on intros with her.
Is there something wrong with me?
What do other people do in this situation?

I really want her to have friends. I really really do. What happens when you have a rat that just doesn't get along with the others?? I can't stand the thought of rehoming her. I can't even imagine what it would be like to do that to her. She's skittish enough already and I really want her to know that she's safe here with me even if she doesn't fit in with the others. I don't mind maintaining a seperate cage for her. Is this selfish of me?

She's in a room with other rats and can see/interact with them in a way but I know that's not really the greatest situation. She's a really sweet rat towards humans. She seems decently tolerant of other rats at first, but she's so unpredictable. She just lashes out for no apparant reason just when I think we're making good progress.

I have to admit the last time she attacked Fievel really scared me away from wanting to continue putting my friendly kids in danger. This might be a stupid question, but can she make my other rats unfriendly just by having enough bad run ins with them?? Is there a chance that once she gets a little older she might accept a new buddy or will she basically just get grumpier with age? (She's 8 months)

 

[jorats]

Can you describe the attack? In detail please. It matters in determining if Hadley is indeed an aggressive rat or just a bully.
What do your intros look like? where/when/how long/what is included in the area.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Each rat is unique and we need to figure out what Hadley is trying to tell us.

 

[mrnixonpants]

This particular attack happened after many bathroom intros and they had been free ranging in the bedroom together for long periods for a few weeks already. They wrestled a lot, but it was harmless and I thought it was all fun and that they were both happy to have someone closer in age toplay with (Fievel lives with oldies and misses his brother who passed).

I really didn't pay much attention when they started wrestling I was watching tv and letting them run around together. All of a sudden I heard commotion and Hadley had Fievel pinned and he was squealing. When I got them apart Fievel had a nasty bite on his belly right next to his privates.

It swelled and turned into an abscess which took time to drain and heal. I've been scared ever since then. I have done a few more sessions, but I've been afraid to really commit to the whole process again. I just feel she's unpredictable. I love her to pieces and truly do want her to be happy.

I wish I could hire one of you rat gurus to come over and help me!!

 

[mrnixonpants]

Sorry to double post but I posted this morning from my phone at work in a rush.

Is it possible that her cage being next to theirs is actually working against us? I don't know, maybe she feels like they're too close or something and it's making her upset or jealous towards them?

She really doesn't do well at all with group intros. It's way too overwhelming for her having more than one rat to deal with at a time and she goes into attack mode and just starts kicking and puffing at everyone. I chose to focus on getting her intro'd with Fievel just because he was the one she got along with most and they are closest in age to each other. We just adopted a pair of 5 week old boys that I was hoping she could get along with. I read somewhere that adult rats don't see babies as a threat and that they are easier to intro. How old do the boys need to be before testing the waters is safe? They are so small I just can't imagine if she launched an attack at one of them. As you can see I'm really trying to find a situation that will work for her to have friends.

I'm really sorry if I sound a bit frazzled but after trying to intro her for 5 months now I feel like I am going a little crazy.

 

[jorats]

So this happened during out time.
Near his privates, that could mean a real attack or it could me that she was sniffing him and he got worried and tried to bolt while she wasn't done inspecting which would result in a ****oo.
I would try again. We are not sure if this was an attack or an oopsie. Is he the only one she bullies?

 

[mrnixonpants]

No. He is the only one she actually gets along with somewhat. My other two who are both oldies she lashes out at. She really doesn't get along with them at all... She gets all puffy and starts pouncing and flipping around all over the place when they get near her. Seems like she hates them. She swats at them with her claws and doesn't even give them a chance even when they aren't doing anything. She doesn't care. She just obviously doesn't like them or want them near her. They haven't even gotten to wrestling over dominance. She just lashes out at them right off the bat. It's different than with Fievel. With Fievel she doesn't always want to hurt him with him sometimes they just wrestle. With them, she just wants to hurt them and get them away. At least that's what I make of it.

Edit : I should add though she doesn't seek them out to attack them, but if say she's sniffing under the bathroom door and Derby comes near her to sniff under the door too, that's when she gets all upset. I don't know if that really makes a difference.

:wallbang:

 

[jorats]

Ok wow, she's a nasty piece of work. lol
Is she spayed? Can you afford to get her spayed, sometimes, it does help, but not a guaranty, not like with males.

 

[mrnixonpants]

She is spayed she was spayed in the beginning of January. It didn't change her wildwoman ways at all. But I don't mind I didn't spay her for that reason. I spayed her for the health benefits. All my kids are fixed.

 

[jorats]

That poor thing. She must wired wrong. I would probably keep her alone and once in a while start up intros again. Her going for his genitals... that's not right.

 

[mrnixonpants]

What do you think about her cage being close to their cage? Do you think this is a good or bad thing? I want her to be able to at least know there are other rats around and she's not completely alone in the world, but at the same time I don't know if it's effecting her negatively.

Anyone got any good advice on keeping a solo grumpy rat? How can I keep her as happy and healthy as possible without having rat companions?

 

[jorats]

If you see her constantly puffing up because of the proximity of the cage, then ya, it might be best to move it to the other side of the room.

Keep her cage full, lots of stuff, balls, boxes, fleece, small teddy bear, hammocks. Rats love a full cage. Newspaper for nesting, napkins, tissue boxes. Take her out several times a day if you can, even if it's for 10 minutes at a time. Put her on your shoulder while watching TV or reading a book.
How old is she now?
And from time to time, I would try intros again with Fievel.