First Time Introing - Bad to Worse

[TorachiKatashi]

I was going to wait a little longer, but my impatience got the best of me - I did my first intros between Whiskers and the boys today. I was going to do a scary place intro in the bathtub to start, but they didn't seem to have any aggression at all while sniffing each other through the bars (the boys are in the top of the CN and Whiskers is in the bottom), so I made a judgment call and went ahead to the neutral place intro (on my bed). To the best of my knowledge, it went great! There was no puffiness or stressed out noises or anything from anyone. Whiskers had a grand time waddling (and pooping) all over my bed to sniff everything, and the boys had a grand time following him around. Only two things really happened that stick out in my mind that I wasn't sure about. There was grooming going on all around - Oskar was grooming Whiskers, then a little later, Whiskers was grooming Vin. None of it is what I would call "power grooming" like Oskar does with Vin sometimes, it was all actually really gentle and sweet. What does this all mean for who is "alpha"? That stuff is pretty confusing to me in regards to rats. The other thing is that in the first ten-fifteen minutes or so, there were a few instances where Oskar climbed overtop of Whiskers (didn't lay on top of him, just climbed over like he was a speed bump) and peed on him a little. Not much, just those little dribbles like he does on me when he's on my shoulders. I remember reading something before about when that happens, but I can't remember what it was. Should I be worried if he does this? There was nothing from either one of them at all that I would consider aggressive behaviour, and Whiskers didn't really seem to notice it. Other than those things I'm not really sure about, things went great. I didn't have them out as long as I would have liked 'cause I'm still dying with a cold, but I'm going to take them out again later, and hopefully I'll remember my camera then! I do have a picture of Whiskers' first night in his new home, though! As well as a couple of pictures of the boys - which are sure hard to get when all they want to do is sniff the camera. <3

Oh, and just so anyone doesn't have a heart attack - that bag of pine shavings in the background isn't for the cage! It came with my Rat Resort cage, and when the weather gets a little nicer I'm going to give it to my neighbour for her garden.

 

[jennifervb]

I was going to wait a little longer, but my impatience got the best of me - I did my first intros between Whiskers and the boys today. I was going to do a scary place intro in the bathtub to start, but they didn't seem to have any aggression at all while sniffing each other through the bars (the boys are in the top of the CN and Whiskers is in the bottom), so I made a judgment call and went ahead to the neutral place intro (on my bed). To the best of my knowledge, it went great! There was no puffiness or stressed out noises or anything from anyone. Whiskers had a grand time waddling (and pooping) all over my bed to sniff everything, and the boys had a grand time following him around. Only two things really happened that stick out in my mind that I wasn't sure about. There was grooming going on all around - Oskar was grooming Whiskers, then a little later, Whiskers was grooming Vin. None of it is what I would call "power grooming" like Oskar does with Vin sometimes, it was all actually really gentle and sweet. What does this all mean for who is "alpha"? That stuff is pretty confusing to me in regards to rats. The other thing is that in the first ten-fifteen minutes or so, there were a few instances where Oskar climbed overtop of Whiskers (didn't lay on top of him, just climbed over like he was a speed bump) and peed on him a little. Not much, just those little dribbles like he does on me when he's on my shoulders. I remember reading something before about when that happens, but I can't remember what it was. Should I be worried if he does this? There was nothing from either one of them at all that I would consider aggressive behaviour, and Whiskers didn't really seem to notice it. Other than those things I'm not really sure about, things went great. I didn't have them out as long as I would have liked 'cause I'm still dying with a cold, but I'm going to take them out again later, and hopefully I'll remember my camera then! I do have a picture of Whiskers' first night in his new home, though! As well as a couple of pictures of the boys - which are sure hard to get when all they want to do is sniff the camera. <3

Oh, and just so anyone doesn't have a heart attack - that bag of pine shavings in the background isn't for the cage! It came with my Rat Resort cage, and when the weather gets a little nicer I'm going to give it to my neighbour for her garden.

Isn't it wonderful when intros go so well!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bunnydance: :bunnydance: :bunnydance: :bunnydance:

 

I'm sooo happy! Grooming and being pee'd on are all normal, sounds like it went wonderful! :joy:

I am so happy I saved Whiskers and that you were able to take him ..the rest of his life will be wonderful with you!

I would suggest take the pine out of the room ..since it smells :thumbup:

I noticed you don't have shavings on your levels?

 

[jorats]

I never do the scary place intro, I always go straight to neutral unless I feel like I have an aggressive/ish rat.
But each intro is unique and you have to find what works for you.
It sounds like your gut instinct were right on. Good for you!

 

[TorachiKatashi]

I'm sooo happy! Grooming and being pee'd on are all normal, sounds like it went wonderful! :joy:

I would suggest take the pine out of the room ..since it smells :thumbup:

I noticed you don't have shavings on your levels?

I have some fleece liners ordered, but in the meantime, I'm just using the trays. I wipe them down totally with babywipes as part of my morning routine, then spot-clean any pee/poop spots throughout the day. They do have lots of tissues and shredded paper towels and such though for stuffing their domes/hammocks/tissue boxes with. Tomorrow after work (assuming this blasted cold is gone, ugh!) I'm going to drop into WalMart to buy some more fleece to make more blankies out of.

 

[temblabamomo]

Hooray for good first intros! Whiskers is going to love having company and having two other boys to groom him.

 

^ I agree. Whiskers has never experienced a friend before, let alone two! :joy:

 

[TorachiKatashi]

Haven't updated this in a while, so I figured I would!

So, I started with the neutral intros on my bed, then moved to not neutral intros in the bathroom. Everything went well, no fights, just lots of sniffing and grooming. Last Saturday (since Saturdays are my big cleaning days when everything gets scrubbed) I tried them sharing the cage together, but a fight broke out between Whiskers and Oskar so I separated them. Renee did tell me that I probably broke them up too soon (and I probably did, but I was so nervous about everything that I just wanted them to stop screaming). We kind of switched over into neutral intros again because I finally got my bedroom set up such that we can have outtime in here. They started having some fights here, too. Nothing major, no blood or wounds or anything, and they always broke up within a second or two. Pretty much all of them were in cramped quarters (like underneath the cage), so I attributed it to someone feeling trapped and lashing out in defense. This Saturday, I tried them together in their cages again, and there were a few small fights, but nothing major. I started by putting them back into the normal levels (the boys on top and Whiskers in the bottom) and opening the middle ramp. Whiskers ran up to investigate almost right away. He's discovered that he loves to shove litter out of the litter box - ugh. The boys are definitely more afraid of Whiskers than he is of them. They never run right up to him, especially when they're in the cage. They'll crawl a little closer, then run back. Then a little closer, and back. And so on and so on until either they give up or a fight breaks out because someone got too close. Yesterday, Whiskers actually took a nap in the boys' hammock - he crawled on top of Oskar to get inside to (setting of a giant screaming fest on Oskar's part until he jumped out and ran away), then curled up and went right to sleep. The hammock is hanging under the shelf, and both boys ran up to the shelf and wouldn't come down until Whiskers woke up and left. Most of the time, it's Whiskers who decides to go sniff around in the boys' area, but right now he's in his cube under the shelf while the boys are sniffing around on top of his shelf.

So I don't really know what to do at this point. I only leave the middle ramp down for periods at a time during the day (not at night, or when I'm not around to supervise and break up any bad fights). Should I take a step back and stick to outtime intros until the fighting stops, or do I just keep doing what I'm doing? No one is getting hurt in the fights that I can see, they're more just a lot of noise than anything else, but it feels like we're taking steps backwards rather than forwards.

Edit: Well, just now Whiskers came running (or waddling, I suppose) out of his cube long enough to attack Vin and chase him out, so now I don't know WHO the problem is.

Edit2: WELL, now Whiskers is trying to climb up the ramp to get up to where the boys are (with Vin fighting him down every time he gets to the top). Is all this fighting supposed to be Whiskers way of being "alpha?"

 

[jorats]

Yes Whiskers wants to be boss. So you have three choices at this point...
1. Go back ti intros.
2. Keep what you are doing now, closing the ramp when they aren't supervised.
3. Get Whiskers neutered.

If this was my situation, I'd be doing 2. for now unless the discord escalates, then I'd go with the neuter.

 

[Ollie]

Be patient
I am sure it'll work out :thumbup:

 

I don't think you need a neuter, Whiskers is the sweetest boy ever, I don;t think he has an aggressive bone in his body. He has never been with another rat, he has been alone for 1.5 to 2 years, not even played with much. I would give it time, and keep doingwhat your doing with having the ramp down when supervised and having outtime togeather.

 

[TorachiKatashi]

I just don't know what to do with these guys. The first week or two, they were best kind, they'd run around and clean each other and everything. Now even in separate levels of the CN, they're attacking each other through the exposed part where the ladder is hooked up. Suddenly Oskar was SCREAMING, worse than I've ever heard any of them scream. Whiskers bit his tail from through the bars, and took a big chunk off (or almost off - the chunk is still hanging off his tail). This is the first time I've seen blood from any of their fights, but it's enough to make me pretty darn sure they're never going to be out together again. I love Whiskers, and the whole reason I brought him home was because I hoped he could spend his last year or so with some friends, but I can't have him hurting my babies. They don't even like to come out of their cage anymore, because now all that ever happens when they come out is them being attacked. I have to chase them around the cage just to pick them up. I can't stop crying, I just don't know what to do. I want Whiskers to have friends, but not if it means my boys don't feel safe anymore.

What can I do for Oskar? I don't think I have any, like, baby aspirin or anything like that, and no vets will be opened I'm sure until at least Tuesday.

 

[MomRat]

Apply pressure, make sure the bleeding has stopped. When the bleeding is stopped, you can get infant ibuprofen/motrin if you think he's in pretty serious pain.

It sounds like it might be time for a neuter for Whiskers. Neuters are the surest way to reduce aggression in male rats - our boy Quilt was so raging hormonal when we brought him home, he left scars and permanent nerve damage on both David and my hands, and at one point actually leaped from the couch to bite at David as he walked past. After his neuter he became a huge butterball and I had no qualms about letting him kiss my eyelids.

 

[lizmo1221]

Also, in the meantime, switch the pans in the CN so that the one with the cutout is on the bottom. That way they can't get to each other thru the levels of the cage.

 

[TorachiKatashi]

Apply pressure, make sure the bleeding has stopped. When the bleeding is stopped, you can get infant ibuprofen/motrin if you think he's in pretty serious pain.

It sounds like it might be time for a neuter for Whiskers. Neuters are the surest way to reduce aggression in male rats - our boy Quilt was so raging hormonal when we brought him home, he left scars and permanent nerve damage on both David and my hands, and at one point actually leaped from the couch to bite at David as he walked past. After his neuter he became a huge butterball and I had no qualms about letting him kiss my eyelids.

He doesn't seem in pain, and the two spots are already scabbing over. He let me touch his tail and everything this morning. (Not that it would really matter - I'd need a note from God to find a store that's open in the next two days.)

That's the thing - Whiskers is NEVER aggressive with humans, ever. And a third of the time he isn't even aggressive with the boys. If the boys are in their big dome, he'll go up and slowly try to crawl in with them until one of them freaks out, or if they're in their hammock, he'll try to crawl inside with them. Half the time I don't know who to blame. My knowledge about rat "dominance" is about zero, so it's possible I'm blaming Whiskers and it's not his fault at all. The way it seems to go is: Out-time, Whiskers will attack them. In his cage (even if it's just a hanging tail), Whiskers will attack them. In THEIR cage, he turns into a big cuddle bug who just wants to snuggle in with them - but by then, obviously they don't want to go within ten feet of him.

I know Renee has a ton of stuff going on with her own furkids right now, but when things settle down for her, I might see if she'd mind coming over and observing them, just to see if there's some obvious thing I'm totally missing.

Also, in the meantime, switch the pans in the CN so that the one with the cutout is on the bottom. That way they can't get to each other thru the levels of the cage.

Thanks, I never thought of that. I rigged it up last night so the Happy Feet cover that would normally go on that ramp was covering the exposed part, but I'll switch the pans when I clean them today.

 

[MomRat]

If he's attacking them everywhere and then trying to insert himself into their igloo/safe house/hidey box, he's being dominant. One move of a dominant rat is to shove their head under the other rats face, in short, demanding that the other rat groom them. If the other rat refuses, whether because they have an attitude or simply because they are frozen in fear that he might attack again, he's going to get upset and there will be more fighting.

And, as he lived alone for so very long, its possible his aggression is only going to be pointed at the other rats - humans are normal and safe to him. I can pretty much flat out guarantee he would not love you less after a neuter - he's not going to then become cuddly with the rats but bite you. =)

 

[TorachiKatashi]

If he's attacking them everywhere and then trying to insert himself into their igloo/safe house/hidey box, he's being dominant. One move of a dominant rat is to shove their head under the other rats face, in short, demanding that the other rat groom them. If the other rat refuses, whether because they have an attitude or simply because they are frozen in fear that he might attack again, he's going to get upset and there will be more fighting.

And, as he lived alone for so very long, its possible his aggression is only going to be pointed at the other rats - humans are normal and safe to him. I can pretty much flat out guarantee he would not love you less after a neuter - he's not going to then become cuddly with the rats but bite you. =)

I've never seen him shove his head under the boys' - they can't get close enough for that. By the time they get that close to each other, they're already fighting. In out-time and in his half of the cage, Whiskers will actively chase them around to attack them (ESPECIALLY in his cage; the fastest I've ever seen him run was to attack Vin and chase him out of there). But in the top cage, he doesn't go after them at all. They run away from him as he waddles around to sniff everything. Most of the fights up there happen in the dome. He'll lay himself down in the entrance of the dome while the boys are pressed against the back of the inside trying to stay away from him, and over the course of like, half an hour, he'll slowly wiggle inside. A few days ago he was totally inside for a good ten minutes before a fight finally happened. The boys do a lot of the "boxing" where they stand up on their back legs, and when they do that, Whiskers will turn his butt towards them and try to keep his head away.

I might go back to neutral intros and see if things are any better there, and if not, try the scary place intros I didn't do in the first place. Renee said in one of her threads that both the rat vets are on vacation, so either way it'll have to wait until next month.

 

[SQ]

This might help viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24609

 

Everyone told me introing a lone older male rat would be much easier ..I guess not!

Dr. D. won't be back to work until May 2nd (Badgers neuter day) ..I suggest if your going to get him neutered, that you get him to do so! ..be sure to book a consult first to make sure he is a good canadiate for surgery! I don't think Dr. Toor has ever done rat neuters!

 

[TorachiKatashi]

Everyone told me introing a lone older male rat would be much easier ..I guess not!

Dr. D. won't be back to work until May 2nd (Badgers neuter day) ..I suggest if your going to get him neutered, that you get him to do so! ..be sure to book a consult first to make sure he is a good canadiate for surgery! I don't think Dr. Toor has ever done rat neuters!

If it does come to that (and I hope it doesn't), I'll definitely ask for him. Dr. Toor is more of a way to get medicine than anything else, I don't think I'd trust him much to diagnose anything I hadn't already figured out. At his age, though, I don't know if it would be worth the risk. Even if I can get them back to a point where they can enjoy out-time together, even if they can never share a cage, that's better than nothing.

In the meantime, I'm going to start over from the beginning with the guide SQ posted, after a week of off-time so everyone can calm down. I don't imagine Oskar really wants to see Whiskers right now.