Fighting Rat Advice Please!

[Kasper]

Hi there,
I signed up to this forum just to post this query, it does however seem to be a great source of rat knowledge!

My two boys are fighting with more aggression than usual as of yesterday. Silva is a dumbo and Shadow is a regular hooded rat. I adopted them from a local pet store when they were 10 weeks old as someone had returned them.
They are about 6/7 months old now and live in a large cage, a Jenny rat 79.5 x 50 x 80cm cage with 2 houses so this is not the issue.
Now, they sometimes squabble, I've had pairs of female rats before and they have squabbled just the same.. however the boys do get a bit more physical than I am used to but I've learned to accept that. They will in general mount each other, square off, one will push the other into the corner and that is that. It is generally Silva who pushes Shadow into a corner. However the mounting seems to be vice versa.

Yesterday they were fighting a lot, in fact for 20 minutes i heard squeaks, so I split it up once for a 2 minutes as it wasn't stopping. I then left them to it for a further 10 minutes and they were fighting again. I got them both out of the cage so see if either were injured, Silva had a small cut behind his ear (looks fine now, not much blood/nothing serious).. I put them on my sofa and they started again... however Silva pinned Shadow down with his hair on his back all puffy, biting him anywhere he could, his breathing was very loud too (is that bit odd?)... i then split them up and put Silva on a separate chair and checked Shadow - he was fine. I went back to Silva and picked him up...
- Silva is a very placid rat, he doesn't mind being held, he doesn't mind scrathes and strokes. He never Burxes.. he however does seem to grind his teeth of you hold him for too long and he can't get away (sometimes as I'm sure you know it isn't convenient to just put a rat down) he recently had a bit of red nose snot .. I took him too the vet and some antibiotics seem to have cleared it up! . While at the vet he wasn't happy that he was in a box and started grinding his teeth every now and then.. but never once showed aggression toward anyone.
.. so as I picked him up he bit me and drew blood.. I put him back down. I then decided to split them up for the night as I was worried. Silva is in the small extra cage and shadow in their regular cage.
Today I came home from work and Silva came out very normally, greeting me, sat and had a scratch behind the ears etc.. I then introduced shadow to the sofa where I was.. Silva instantly came in, sniffed shadows private parts, hair up, pinning him down, biting, breathing heavy.
I've re-split them up for now as it seems to be very consistent. Shadow is very weary of Silva now and tries to run away but Silva will give chase.

Is this normal? what should I do? Have I done the right thing splitting them up? If you need any more info I will try to provide it

Thanks in advance!

Kasper.

 

[stormmidnight]

i am no expert but i would keep them separated. i think ive read on this forum that is blood is drawn, its time to give up.. not sure if that was for hamsters or rats tho .. maybe also get them neuterd to calm down their hormones and what not .. hopefully someone more experienced will come along, good luck !

 

[hopefloats]

Well that is the age male rat aggression can start to show. I believe they become mature around that age. Full hormones forward from there out.

is he breathing heavy or is he actually hissing? my boys make a hissing sound when they are really upset.

has anything changed lately? loss of a cage mate? could the one boy be in pain? have you checked him over? any other rats in the house?

 

[Kasper]

I got him out to check him (Silva) over, he will let me touch him everywhere without filching at all, nothing seems abnormal. However his hair spiked up after 5 minutes and he wanted to get away from me which is completely unlike him. I put him back in his separation cage straight away as I didn't want to hang around to be bitten again and it's what he wanted.
Shadow also seems fine, but he never stays still for more than a second either way lol.
Nothing drastic has changed other than Silva being on the antibiotics for a week (they finished a week ago). They are the only rats in the house.
It could be hissing, but it really just sounds like heavy breathing through his nose to me. He will sit on his own and gnaw his teeth after they confront each other. I really have no idea what to do.. I once split up two girls I had years ago because they were fighting aggressively and the next day they were fine together.
The boys used to sleep in the same house just fine and would box normally.. but never with this level of aggression.

Thank you for the replies so far!

 

[hopefloats]

To me, it would sound like something is bothering him, if he is all of the sudden puffing up like that. The breathing would also make me wonder. Boys do strange things when their hormones kick in though.

I am sure jorats will be chiming coming along soon enough with some better advice, she is better with behaviors.

 

[jennifervb]

Hi Kasper! :welcome: to the Rat Shack!!!

I have to ask if your boys are neutered? If not, they need to be. Most boys need to be neutered because their hormones will whirlwind out of control and you will have nothing but fighting. I had that problem with my boys.

Albert once bit me so hard that my entire hand swelled. His little gonads were the first to go. You don't ever bite mom... I don't care what kind of testosterone problem you are having. :bunnydance:

He was mortified after he bit me which indicates that he really didn't want to be mean. That is probably Silva's problem. It isn't as if he doesn't know Shadow. They were cagemates before coming to you and it doesn't appear as if you had any problems when you first brought them home.

Hang in there Kasper. The people here will help get you through this! I hope you decide to stick around even after your problem is solved. :bunnydance:

 

[SQ]

Nothing drastic has changed other than Silva being on the antibiotics for a week (they finished a week ago). They are the only rats in the house.
It could be hissing, but it really just sounds like heavy breathing through his nose to me.

The

red nose snot

is porphrin and can indicate that a rat is stressed or ill.
Was Silva on meds for respir problems? If so, a week on antibiotics is not long enough.
When rats have respir problems they need to stay on antibiotics that are helping for at least 6 weeks.
imo, Silva needs to go to a good vet experienced in treating rats if possible. I think Silva needs to see a vet and he likely needs to be put on antibiotics asap - before the weekend.
Were the antibiotics he was on helping? if so you could try those again.
Otherwise baytril, doxy, and zithro are good for treating myco. The combos of baytril + doxy, baytril + zithro, and baytril + clavamox are good too. Lasix is good if his lungs are full of fluid, but you would need to watch his hydration.
If you know his weight and the strength of meds he is put on, we can likely tell you if he is being under dosed, etc

The boys may need neuters as well, but it sounds like Silva may be ill to me.

 

[Kasper]

Thanks again for more replies!
He was on baytril, I'm fairly sure (I am at work right now so can't check, will confirm when I'm home) 0.8 tiny lines from a syringe a day for a week. I have not seen any sign of the porphrin since 2 days after I commenced giving him the antibiotics. He never had sneezing fits.. one of my girls had the respitory problems and was on antibiotic combinations for the majority of her life. For long periods she would have them. From the exact same vet.. it was far,far worse than Silva's problem.. like lots of sneezing, snuffing and coming from the eye. Silva had just had it twice before his visit to the vet and once the day after.. not since then though. The vet did fill the bottle of antibiotics and told me to use it if it played up again or if Shadow showed signs of it.
I do not know his exact weight, however the vet said he is a normal weight for a male dumbo. He is much bigger than Shadow however.
They are not neutered. I have always kept female rats before adopting these guys. I will most certainly be looking into it when the vets open tomorrow. Money for vets and stuff is not an issue.

 

[Roo]

Welcome! I hope it's a hormone issue so you can do the snip-snip and not have a sick boy on your hands. (shop around for a vet who's experienced with neutering and for prices! Some are a lot more expensive than others)

I don't know much about behavior (especially with male rats, I've never had any), but I would certainly take him to the vet. If he's in a good mood, maybe hold him up to your ear and try to get a listen to his lungs.

If Silva was on antibiotics for a week, that won't be enough.
It's kinda like for humans. When we get antibiotics, we have to keep taking them until the dose is gone- otherwise we haven't really gotten rid of it at all and it was basically worthless!
For rats, that dose is at least 4 weeks.

 

[Kasper]

Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I'm beginning to get very annoyed now I'm being told the vet could very well have been wrong with the doseage. I did also say that "well, every other time it's started with a shot and then the next day I'd give the rat the medicine" ..she replied "well, it's not that bad so there is no need for that".. if that is incorrect I will be almost certainly be searching for a new veterinarian for Silva... and writing the old one a pretty stern letter.

 

[Roo]

From what I've found, rats work differently than any other animal. A lot of vets who have had "Small pets" training don't really know that rats are different. If you do write her, I wouldn't make it stern - just moreso giving the info. All vets still have learning to do ;-) Looking around for another vet doesn't sound like a bad idea though.

I've never had any of my rats given a shot (Maybe I read that wrong???) of meds, but he does give them their first dose while we're standing there to see how the rat takes it and to give some advice on how to make it easy if they're being stubborn.

 

[Kasper]

I doubt I would make it that stern, I wouldn't really know how beyond addressing it "GRRRRR".
However, yes, at the beginning of my girls course of antibiotics in the past she would have an injection and then I would start giving it to her from a syringe the next day. I'd have no clue as to how common that is.

 

[SQ]

Baytril is never given by injection to rats as that would be very harmful.

 

[Roo]

Curious - do you know what might have been injected, SQ? Is there anything that could have been?

 

[jorats]

Hi and welcome.
The behavior could be due to hormones or due to his illness. Without his respiratory issues under control, you won't be able to get him neutered, which sounds like it would be the ideal thing for him.
I recommend you bring him to another vet for a second opinion and oral meds.