Ensuring the saftey of rats around other pets

[redgal]

Hello everyone,

Before I adopt our ratty babies, I am thinking out everything very carefully. At the moment, I am thinking about ways to ensure the safety of rats around my dogs. I am planning on buying a cage and putting it on the dresser ( high up but my younger dog could still leap up to the cage if she gets the opportunity) in the playroom where we hang out quite a lot but the room is gated off from our dogs. The other option is to get a FN and put it on the floor ( with stand) but if my dogs do get into the room the cage is at 'sniff' level. If I am not around, the door will be closed. I will not be letting ratties out near my dogs as my dogs will want to hunt so I will put my dogs outside when the ratties have out of cage time.


I would love to hear if anyone has any suggestions or advice on what worked or didn't for them in terms of where they put the cage, how they worked with the other pet to stay away or training them to get used to the rats ( e.g. do you let them sniff the cage etc?), giving ratties time and attention etc etc and any other general tips.

Thanks so much

 

[SQ]

If your dogs would want to hunt them, then it is a very dangerous situation.
I would suggest that you do not get any rats or other small animals they would view as prey.

If you decide to get rats anyway, I would suggest a critter nation cage because of smaller bar spacing and because it would be a more difficult to knock over. Even so, little tails can hang out of the cage, etc.
Your dogs should never be allowed in the same room as the rats or the rat cage. Even if you are present, they should never be in the same room.

I adopted out 2 baby girls to a wonderful couple awhile ago.
I cautioned them about their dogs, etc.
The dogs were left alone in the room with the rat cage for a minute, knocked over the cage and ate the babies :sad3: It happened so fast, there was nothing they could do.

Some dogs, that aren't hunting breds and don't seem to have a hunting instinct, are ok in the same room as a rat cage, when supervised.
And some people do put their rats at risk, allowing other family pets to interact with them.

 

[Moon]

I have noticed something lately, about dogs and small animals. It seems that if they have some access (like the ability to sniff/see the cage) they tend to obsess over them less than if they can only hear the rats and are never allowed to see what is making the noise. Obviously, there ARE exceptions to this rule, and you know your dogs best. But my recommendation is to not completely hide the rats away.

And, honestly, a nice sturdy cage like an FN might be safer than having a cage way up high where it could be knocked over.

It only took Tungsten two times of sticking his nose through the bars of the rattie cage for him to learn that the cage is OFF LIMITS for him! LOL

What I would be most concerned about in your situation (especially with your ability to block off the room) would be the possibility of ratties getting out of the cage. If you are adopting young ones, an FN would be very escapable, and ratties running across the room are much more likely than ratties bustling about in their cage. So you may want to consider a CN or the fact that you might need to mesh the FN.

 

[redgal]

Hmmm, that's two different viewpoints to consider, LOL.

My dogs are hunting-type dogs. Having said that they have learnt to be great around cats and more recently when we stayed with a friend who had a bird they sniffed for a short time then lost interest, even when it flew around. Although out in the wild woods they would hunt it. I would ALWAYS supervise and never leave rats alone with dogs EVER. I do trust my dogs but, I dont even leave them unattended with my toddler - saftey is important to us all.

It's so sad to hear of situation where rats gets hurt/killed which is why I am asking before going ahead. I would feel so bad if that happened in this house but I woud love to rescue some more animals ( though not at the sake of their lives).SQ - I totally understand your viewpoint. I am a huge animal lover and a death or accident on my hands would really upset me and I woud feel bad. But I really hope I can adopt some ratties. I just wonder if there are others who have done it successfully?

I have noticed something lately, about dogs and small animals. It seems that if they have some access (like the ability to sniff/see the cage) they tend to obsess over them less than if they can only hear the rats and are never allowed to see what is making the noise. Obviously, there ARE exceptions to this rule, and you know your dogs best. But my recommendation is to not completely hide the rats away.

And, honestly, a nice sturdy cage like an FN might be safer than having a cage way up high where it could be knocked over.

It only took Tungsten two times of sticking his nose through the bars of the rattie cage for him to learn that the cage is OFF LIMITS for him! LOL

What I would be most concerned about in your situation (especially with your ability to block off the room) would be the possibility of ratties getting out of the cage. If you are adopting young ones, an FN would be very escapable, and ratties running across the room are much more likely than ratties bustling about in their cage. So you may want to consider a CN or the fact that you might need to mesh the FN.

Moon, yes, I noticed that with my dogs and other people's pets (cats and birds). If supervised and allowed to safely investigate, they did lose interest, but if I always blocked them off their curiosity grew....One of my dogs got scratched by a cat once too and he learned to stay out of their way!

Did Tungsten get bitten by a rat and that is how he learned or did you correct him? What type of dog is he?

if I decide to go ahead with adopting, I might get a FN then and put hardwire cloth around it. Is the CN bar spacing closer together than the FN?

 

[jennifervb]

If your dogs would want to hunt them, then it is a very dangerous situation.
I would suggest that you do not get any rats or other small animals they would view as prey.

If you decide to get rats anyway, I would suggest a critter nation cage because of smaller bar spacing and because it would be a more difficult to knock over. Even so, little tails can hang out of the cage, etc.
Your dogs should never be allowed in the same room as the rats or the rat cage. Even if you are present, they should never be in the same room.

I adopted out 2 baby girls to a wonderful couple awhile ago.
I cautioned them about their dogs, etc.
The dogs were left alone in the room with the rat cage for a minute, knocked over the cage and ate the babies :sad3: It happened so fast, there was nothing they could do.

Some dogs, that aren't hunting breds and don't seem to have a hunting instinct, are ok in the same room as a rat cage, when supervised.
And some people do put their rats at risk, allowing other family pets to interact with them.

I remember that situation SQ. I was devastated when you posted over it! I cried over them as if they had been my own. Now I am anal about anything or anyone (with anything...LOL) coming to my home. :tearful:

 

[Moon]

The CN is bar spacing suitable for very small rats, AND it is horizontal so they can climb it, which is a BIG bonus. But they're a pain to get into Canada and definitely not cheap. I just paid an arm and a leg for my CN but I LOVE it and don't regret getting it in the least.

Tungsten is a Canaan dog, a breed that can certainly be high prey drive. The wild dogs of Israel, used mostly as watch dogs and for herding when domesticated would have eaten lots of rodents and things of the like. In terms of temperament they're somewhere between greyhounds (sighthound personality, high prey drive) and your typical herding breeds (high energy, overwhelming urge to "round up" their buddies.) But he is no where near as interested in the rats as a terrier would be. I never, EVER leave him in the room where their cage is unsupervised, and I'm even more careful when the girls are out.

My ladies out running about would be a meal to him. In their cage, they are not to be messed with! Yes, he poked his nose in, and he got a chomp... twice. That's all he ever needed. He was also very young when this happened, though, which helped I'm sure.

I think what is key when people have rats and dogs is for them to KNOW that it could be an issue and plan accordingly. If one of your dogs is showing too much interest, then you'll need to move the cage to a room that the dogs will NEVER enter. And if your dogs do come into the room and look at the cage and then decide to do something else, then they need to be heavily rewarded.

Again, I think as long as you are able to block off that room, even when you are in it, and that everyone else in the family can guarantee the dogs will NEVER be left in the room with the cage, then you will be safe. It sounds like you know your dogs well and will be able to handle them accordingly.

And a side note to readers in general: Dogs and rats CAN be managed, even high prey ones. But, you need to know your dog, and be confident that you are capable to deal with possible issues. If you have even the smallest doubt in your abilities, or if any of your dogs have an obsessive personality or a serious existing behavioural issue, then I'd rethink the decision.

 

[Vanessa]

Unfortunately, you cannot remove the instinct that has been bred into dogs for literally thousands of years. Some people will argue until they are blue in the face that their terriers would not kill their rats and that they have been trained since pups to leave them alone. It is not that easy, those dogs have been bred for centuries to kill rats and that instinct is never, ever going to leave them.
I am sure that predators will easily act in a manner that would lead their owners to assume that they have no interest in the cats, rats, birds, and other smaller animals, but the truth is that they are always interested and if/when they decide to attack it is going to result in tragedy for everyone. It might not be the first time you turn your back, and it might not be the 1,000 time you turn your back, but it will eventually happen.
Never, ever turn your back on any animal with access to another, smaller animal. Be smarter than the predator is and always assume that the other animals will be in peril.
I have always had cats and rats in the same house, and the cats do have access to the cages but all the cages have always been secure and nobody has ever gotten out or been damaged. The cats are always 100% locked away safely in another room when the rats are taken out with absolutely no exceptions.
I have never had anything even close to an accident with anyone.

 

[redgal]

Thanks Moon, that is GREAT advice and excellent suggestions.

I feel like I do know my dogs really well and I also do A LOT of training with them and read books on dog beahvious and training all the time. Both of them have come such a long way since we have adoted them. These were dogs that no-one wanted at the shelter and now people ask me where I got them from and if I can train their dogs! They are not perfect though and they will always be dogs - hunting animals. That is just what they are and I'm under no illusion that they would play nicely if given the chance. I'm sure my younger one especially would benefit from a bite or two if it happened. I would never leave them alone with a cat either - it's just safer regardless of the animal and their behaviour.

I personally feel like I can successfully manage them amongst other pets because I know them so well and their behaviours but yes, I would obviously always take the safest precautions/steps. But I needed to hear that other people have managed successfully too. Thank you. :thumbup:

Where did you order your CN from?

 

[SQ]

I just want to mention that the couple that adopted the two baby girls were intelligent people who knew their dogs well, thought they could manage them, and absolutely believed that their dogs would never hurt the ratties.

I would advise you to not allow the dogs into the same room as the rats.
I have heard of a few different instances where pet dogs ate the pet rats.
I believe it is best not to put small animals at risk, no matter how well you know your pets or how well trained they are .... especially if your pets have a stong hunting instinct.

 

[Moon]

Are you saying that the dogs should never be in the room with the rats while they are in their cage, ever, even when you are with them? Most of the time that's just not realistic. I agree that dogs should not be left in the room unattended, or should they be allowed in the room when the rats are out, but in a secure cage when supervised the rats should be fairly safe.

As sad as the previous situation was, they were in one of those large SP ferret cages, yes? Not nearly as sturdy as a FN or CN.

 

[redgal]

Well there is one thing I am sure on - I am ruling out the SP cage and hunting for a good deal on a CN!

 

[ryelle]

I'm not saying that you can train your dog up enough to remove the natural hunting instinct that they have, but i think that you should be able to train them enough to either not go near the cage, or if they do to only smell, teach them that jumping up is wrong. If you work with them, using praise mostly, then they will get the hint. I think it's also important to not get excited around the cage while the dogs are there - because they will think that it's all a big game, and will get over excited aswell.

I think saying do not allow the dogs in the same room as the rat is a bit OTT. If you are worried about the cage being knocked over then yes, don't let them in the room with the rats unsupervised. But, when your there, and the rats are safely LOCKED (make sure the door's can't be knocked open) in the cage, then i don't see an issue.

You never know, youre dogs may end up being perfectly fine and not even showing any sort of attention to to the rats.

I have issues with my rats and my parakeet. Its the other way round, while my parakeet may cause serious damage to my rats - the rats can more easily kill my parakeet. My 5 month old boy mostly has to be watched like a hawk when he's on the couch, because he jumps over to the table where the bird cage is and tries to climb up it, the bars are also wide enough for him to climb inside ><
I never say though, don't let the rats in the room with the parakeet cage!!

 

[SQ]

Everyone makes their own choices.
My opinion is not OTT ... it is based on pretty horrible experiences.
While you can train animals, putting animals with a strong hunting instinct in situations where they have contact with small prey animals is risky.
Personally, I don't believe in taking unnecessary risks when it is a matter of my pets life or death.

 

[Dahlas]

Well I can only speak from my own experience....I have 4 dogs, 2 cats, and 15 rats......we all live together in not one very small living room......My rats are in their FN and my other do not bother them at all....they are not aloud. I am a dog trainer and totally believe that I can read my animals well enough to trust them with the rats in the cage....even if I am not in the room...but still in the house.
When I go out or go to bed my dogs and cats sleep in my room with me (one dog and one cat sleeps in with my daughter)
I do not leave my cats have access to the living room when I am not home or in bed......just to be on the safe side.....my two younger dogs go to my dog run when I am not home.....the two older ones are fine and have the run of the house......without any worries that they would bother the rats.
I never allow any of my other animals access to the rats when they are having their free time but I would trust my dogs before I would trust my cats...I don't think anyone would hurt them but I am not 100% sure of this...so why take the risk...it is unnecessary. I always put my cats in another room......if the rats are running free...on the couch etc.....
If I am just holding one of the rats then all my animals can stay out.....
If I take my rats in the bathroom or back on the bed my other animals stay out of those rooms......It is just not worth the risk to me.....and I like not having to watch and stay on guard I can just relax and totally enjoy them.
I do believe that all other pets should be able to be trained enough to leave the rats alone in their cage....if they are nosing around it, sniffing it, staring at them or jumping on the cage then they are not well trained...and should not be trusted at all.
What happened to SQ's baby rats was awful...and I am sure totally preventable. I am sure those dogs had shown many signs to the owners to let them know that they could not trust them to leave the room for even a second.....But unfortunately they did not read the signs.....

 

[Vanessa]

You are absolutely correct in not allowing your rats anywhere near your bird because they are quite capable of killing it in the blink of an eye. I have seen posts on rat forums telling a story of someones rat killing their cockatiel. It was very tragic for all involved.
I am also not saying that training your dog well cannot cut back on instances of acting out on their instincts, but animals are unpredictable and even the best trained dogs in the world are capable of acting out against the training that they have received. No amount of training eliminates every ounce of instinctual behaviour.
We have all heard stories of dogs who have lived their entire lives around children, who were well trained and loving members of the family, who all of a sudden attack one of them.
I had a friend in my early twenties who, at around seven years old, had to receive over 200 stitches to her lower face when their beloved, well trained, lived its whole life around children, Labrador Retriever literally ripped her face off for no reason. Whenever people tell me that they can predict every single thing that their well trained dog is capable of doing, I think of my friends face and the amount of surgery she endured and would still be scarred horribly for her entire life.
Animals can be trained to be well behaved, but they will never reason and think like we do and will forever be unpredictable. As long as people keep that in mind, always train their dogs no matter what their size, and treat them as animals and not humans, then we can cut down considerably on tragic accidents.

 

[Debbie]

It's very eery that this post came today.

A very dear friend of mine just went through a horribly tragic experience this last weekend, very similar to the one SQ posted about. Before that, I might only have my own experiences to share.

My friend ALWAYS kept her rats in their own room, with the door closed at all times. She has a cat that was just a tad too interested in the rats. She also recently adopted a breeder mill female dog. Although she was very thorough and loved her rats with everything she had, it only took this one time.......she came home from an errand to find the door open and 9 or her 11 ratties, gone......at the hand of her new dog. I knew all these ratties well, and loved them like my own. Many were siblings to my own as we rescued from the same groups. I am still in shock and have nightmares...and these weren't even my own rats. She of course, is devastated. All it took was on door that wasn't latched just right. And now they are gone. :sad3: :sad3:

In our house, we have a dog, cat, bunnies, guinea pigs and rats. We keep all the small animals in their own room with the door shut at night and when we are not home. Our rats are kept locked tightly in secure cages. Yet I still always worry that something could happen sometime. Our dog is wonderful with our small animals, and I trust him completely, yet I still would never put him in a situation where I'd have to trust him alone with them.

Even if the dogs couldn't get at your ratties, the fact that they have the predator instinct would be enough to make your rats feel unsafe and fearful. They know when they are being stalked....even if they are safe in the cage....they will feel unsafe.

 

[neener]

I have 2 dogs and three cats, and the main floor of my house is open concept, so if I want my rats to be around my family, and well socialized, it is not only impracticle, but it is impossible to keep my dogs and cats away from my rat cages. My cages are very secure, and I know that when closed and locked (I have child proof locks for my sons sake), no one can get in or out. When I take my rats out, my animals are closed upstairs while I carry them to the bathroom (my only ratproof play area). I generally believe they are safe from my dogs, but like others here, I take no chances. They've all sniffed the cages a little, especially at first, but as soon as Taffy got thier smell and saw them come close, she would lunge and bite at the cage. They defend themselves well in thier cage, and it certainly took all my animals no time before they realized there was no point in getting too close. Sometimes the cats watch from afar, but the dogs totally ignore them now.

 

[redgal]

Wow, lots of posts from multi-pet homes whihch seem to be handled well. :thumbup:

I do agree, no mater how much training my dogs have I am NEVER under the illusion that training will override their instincts. I would never turn my back on them with the rats nor with my toddler yet they are great dogs but again, they are dogs - with natural instincts if left to their own devices.It is safer not to take the risk or give them the opportunity. I know them well and can read them well. I can anticipate by reading their body language if they are uncomfortable with something, too excited etc etc. But still, I would always take the safest route which for me would be never to leave them unattended for one second around the cage, if rats are out - the dogs will be outside in the yard with no exceptions, door to cage fully locked ( will buy an extra lock), door to room shut when I am out, training dogs to behave around cage.

It is devastating to hear of tragic events and I can totally understand why a lot of people woud be nervous about multi-pet families but it also seems from reading here that there are also some well-managed co-habitations where everyone is given a safe, and good quality life which is awesome. :thumbup:

I am thankful to hear from everyone because it keeps me aware of ALL the issues involved in managing a multi-pet home and the best way to manage one IF/when I do decide to adopt.

 

[SQ]

My brother's dog, who never showed any interest in my niece's hamster (kept in her bedroom) and therefore was not viewed as a danger .... managed to get access to him and eat him :sad3:

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

I have never had issues with any of my animals interacting with my rats. I have a dog and 3 cats (which are allowed outside and are great hunters). The cats and dog are never allowed around the ratties unattended when they are out of the cage but when they are in the cage they have full access to the rats and I have never had a problem. So imo it comes down to your animals and you know your animal best. Although if my cats or dog had it out for my rats then it would be a completely different situation.