Crass/Paya Intros - Ugh.

[M0onkist]

I actually had to banish my ex-boyfriend from intros because he was so nervous, his energy was instigating fights among the Pips and Mr. Honeycomb.

Basically I just explained to him that I'd done intros once before (only once, but I also had the wonderful geniuses of the Rat Shack), and I'd take care of it. Then I relaxed and just watched them - I did keep a spray bottle handy, filled with water, in case there was a furball I couldn't untangle quickly (like if they were in a corner of the cage or something). They were actually calm from the start of the intro, and moved in with each other the next day.

Would it help maybe to listen to calming music before you do the intro? I find rats are REALLY good at picking up on your emotional state, and since you've had Crass longer she probably reads you best. So basically, you worrying makes her worry, so she thinks she should be worrying about this encroacher (Paya, even though Paya's a sweet, relaxed little ratty!). Well, calming music before or during, even. It won't slow you down from reacting at all (Trust me, when they furball, you move fast!), but it will help you keep your heart rate at a normal, slower pace.

 

[jorats]

You can dominate her in the middle of her bullying. Wait till she makes a move.

 

[Spork]

Edited to add videos.

I did round two in the bathtub with water [s:3i3w9pmr]Sunday[/s:3i3w9pmr] Monday morning. Everything seemed fine, occasionally I would hear a squeak when they were right next to each other, and Crass would step on Paya when she was trying to position herself for an escape attempt, but Paya didn't seem to object at all. Crass did eat some of the blueberry yogurt I put out, but Paya wasn't interested.








It was clear that Crass's only goal was to escape the bathtub, so I decided to try draining the water out. After the water was gone Crass settled down enough to groom herself, but she still really just wanted out. I wasn't ready to end the session or move them to the floor, but my girls really seemed like they needed comforting, so I sat down in the tub (I don't know if this was a good idea or not). They both ran over and started climbing on me, and tried to burrow into my sweater. For awhile it was similar to how they were on the island, too preoccupied to give each other much attention, but then they ended up meeting nose to nose, and there was... something. It only lasted a fraction of a second, I don't remember exactly what the reaction was, maybe a lunge or a swipe, something similar to what happens in that second vid, but shorter, because, well, they were on me and I wasn't going to let them have a fight or a scuffle, or anything really, while I was holding them.

After that I got out of the tub and put them at opposite ends. Again, for a few minutes they ignored each other and did their own things, but then there was a boxing match by the basket/island (which I didn't think to take out of the tub when I drained the water). I don't know who started, and I think it started with them both next to the basket, and then Crass jumped up on top of it, but it's really hard to remember clearly. There was no squeaking, and it didn't look like they were trying to hurt each other, so I grabbed my camera and started recording, I think I managed to catch the second half. I took the basket away after that.

Ok, so maybe not boxing, but definitely something:



They went back to ignoring each other, but there was one more odd moment. Crass was sitting at one end of the tub grooming, and Paya slowly walked up to her, got kinda poofy, and then when she was right next to Crass she arched her back. Crass just kept on grooming, then she sniffed Paya, finished grooming, and then got up and wandered off.

Right after Paya walked up:


After about five more minutes of little to no interaction between the two I decided to call it a day.

So, what do you think Shackers?

I want to have another session as soon as I can, but I'm not really sure where to go from here.

 

[jorats]

Ok, so what's happening is what I thought would happen and what we want to happen. Crass is a bossy little b. But it's because she's super insecure and a worrier. Paya is calmer and will slowly take over as the alpha because honestly, Crass needs an alpha. This is all good!
There's no boxing going on, Paya moves Crass out of her face like "oh no you didn't". and snap her fingers. lol
Adding yourself in the mix was ok. I'm usually there during intros anyway, especially if you can keep a calm and assertive energy. Next step, I'd take them on a bed or table top, where you can be there but not your whole body, like on a table top, you sit on the chair so your upper body is there while they walk around and meet and such. I'm pretty sure you can relax now. It's looking good!

 

[Spork]

Ok, so what's happening is what I thought would happen and what we want to happen. Crass is a bossy little b. But it's because she's super insecure and a worrier. Paya is calmer and will slowly take over as the alpha because honestly, Crass needs an alpha. This is all good!
There's no boxing going on, Paya moves Crass out of her face like "oh no you didn't". and snap her fingers. lol
Adding yourself in the mix was ok. I'm usually there during intros anyway, especially if you can keep a calm and assertive energy. Next step, I'd take them on a bed or table top, where you can be there but not your whole body, like on a table top, you sit on the chair so your upper body is there while they walk around and meet and such. I'm pretty sure you can relax now. It's looking good!

It's kinda funny, I've always seen Crass as the headstrong little punk and Paya as nervous and skittish, I guess I really don't know how to read rats :giggle:

But :joy: about things going how they're supposed to!

My bed isn't in any way neutral, but I guess I can clear off the kitchen table. There aren't many places in my apartment that are neutral, they've spent time in every room except my roommates' bedroom, and that's not an option. Their cages are in the kitchen, they get out time on the couch in the living room, and free-ranging in my bedroom.

 

[lilspaz68]

That turned out well, and I definitely agree with Jo...Crass needs Paya a lot more than Paya needs Crass. LOL. I bet Crass was the one doing the worried squeaks too. :giggle:

 

[Spork]

*sigh*

Just did one on the kitchen table. I really wish my camera batteries hadn't dies part way through

It want the same as the bathtub for awhile, and I even got them eating together for a little bit. I think that's when the trouble started.
Crass was eating the yogurt I put out, and then Paya started eating too, and I thought "Breakthrough!" but then Crass wandered away, and when she came back Paya butt-bumped her. It was nothing but tension after that. There was a squabble where it looked like Paya was trying to pin Crass, but I'm not certain. After that there was lots of poofyness, Crass would squeak when I touched her. For a little while Paya was sitting by the edge of the table, and Crass would scuttle up, sniff, and then quickly back away, over and over. I was trying to get them to a point where they were both calm, so I was letting them be on me, trying to keep them separate. Again, they met and there was an interaction, I think Crass was the aggressor this time, and I separated them right away. Paya ran into my sweater to my sleeve and stayed there.

It sucks that my batteries died, I'm sure I'm missing a lot.

Back to the tub?

 

[lilspaz68]

Back to the dry tub, at least until you are more secure yourself.

I don't think it was a bad thing what you saw...it was the shift over from Paya being subbie to alpha...if you can handle it, keep going. There were no fights at all :thumbup:

 

[jorats]

I wouldn't go back to the tub. Paya is trying to dominate Crass, telling her it's ok, I'll be the boss, no worries. But Crass is not ready for it. But it has to happen. I'd stick to table top. Make sure your intros are longer than 30 minutes.

 

[hopefloats]

hey that is awesome! the best part of the videos? You were laughing! I have put myself to a spot where they boys could crawl on me while doing intros, it seems to give them comfort. mine never fought on me but it isnt to say your will or will not do it there. I have found just rubbing their head a bit helps lower stress levels with them too. Just make sure the table is blank, if they have anything to hide under it will cause one to try to own it, I generally wait till after a few days of the table to give them a comfort box to hide in. I know you are trying to avoid that major scuffle. It looks good though considering how the first one went. You should look for Kimbers post on her intro's with Baxter and Quinn, her boys were little buggers to for a few days.

If they get along on your lap, then you can sit in a chair and let them climb around on you, it would still be an intro and it will help.

 

[handmeafish]

I don't usually like to be a part of my intros because Seamus, my agressive boy, is really attached to me. I've seen him be fine, until I get to involved, and suddenly hill flip out if another rat gets to close. At this point I will dominate him, and remove my self until he is more comfortable with the new guy.
I don't know that it goes that way for everyone, but for Seamus, it seems to work best.

 

[Spork]

OK, I think I'm gonna go back to the tub, for a few reasons.

1. The table is a huge pain to set up, I have to move the microwave, toaster oven, several houseplants, and a pile of dirty dishes, and then I have to drag it across the kitchen so they can't jump to the counter tops. and then I have to put it all back afterwards. This makes intros pretty darn inconvenient, not to mention it make it difficult for my roommate to use the kitchen.

2. I'm much more tense and stressed out in the kitchen, and if my roommates are around it becomes distracting. I feel far more confidant in the bathroom, I can focus all my attention on the girls, and I don't have to actively prevent them from climbing on me.

3. They spent a good amount of time trying to climb on me, as I was the only easy exit from the table, and when I finally let them there was a spat. It's the second time they've spatted on me, and I don't react well, which probably just stresses them out more. I think being on me makes them a bit too confidant (read: cocky), and it also makes it harder for me to observe the interaction or be objective about it.

I think the table is just too far outside of my comfort zone for now, In the bathroom I can giggle about them stepping in the food and trying to escape, but in the kitchen I'm just tense and waiting for it to end. So for my own sanity, I'm gonna stick to the bathtub until I'm more confidant.

 

[hopefloats]

That is a good plan. As long as the intro happen it doesn't matter where. It is important for you be comfortable with it too. It is a learning curve for your rats and for you to learn about them.

 

[jorats]

Oh definitely, if it's too much hassle to set things up and you can't be completely comfortable, you can do the tub intros for a week, until it's time to move it to familiar ground.

 

[jennifervb]

Hang in there Spork!!! Intros can take forever depending on the rats' characters! Your girls are not being aggressive. They are doing what rats generally do when they are being introed.

I had an experience with Albert and Roquefort when they came home and needed to be introed. Neither boy was neutered and the aggression ran high.

Albert actually bit me twice (once in the big toe and once in the hand) because he was so angry with the situation. It took my foot 2 weeks to heal and my hand took 6 months (he went right through the finger and severed the cartilage). What was interesting was that Albert did not bite Roque. He needed to get the anger out so he chose my foot. (I guess he didn't realize that my toe was part of me!)

Both of the little twerps were neutered the very next week and I was not happy with Albert. :rant:

I am telling you this because I want you to have a comparison between the behaviors you are seeing in your girls... and what can happen between rats. You will, no doubt, see that your girls' bantering is absolutely harmless. They need to iron out the hierarchy thing and that can look really intimidating to a ratparent looking in. There have been no attacks on you and no blood has been shed by or to either of your girls.

Paya will sort things out and Crass will be just fine. They both remind me of Ben and Basil when they were introed. Ben was alot like Crass and Basil was like Paya. Once they managed to settle their differences, they were one heart and one soul. It just takes time and patience to get them there. :hugs: :wink2:

 

[Spork]

Too tired to type much, but I have videos.

Tabletop yesterday before the batteries died:




And the bathtub this morning:

 

[hopefloats]

lol is that crass making all the noise in the videos?

Honestly it looks better on the table than it does in the tub without water. crass is being a little bugger but it looks like paya just lets her do it hoping she will give it up soon. It still looks ok though, she is huffing and puffing but it isnt full of major fights, just typical rat squabbles. crass reminds me of baxter (kimber rat), he stayed puffy and bit on quinn for a few days too.

 

[Spork]

I went for the table this time, since they seemed more well-behaved there and it was still mostly cleared off...

There were NO scuffles! :dance:
There was still some poofyness and butt-bumping, and at one point Crass was in Paya's face and Paya squeaked lound enough to make me jump, but there weren't any wresting matches, squabbles, scuffles, or fights!

Overall the session lasted about an hour, but the last 20 or so minutes were pretty much just this (video) :

(we really need to take out the trash, sorry)

The first time she did it, she actually slid down the leg, I wish I'd been able to catch it on video, it was ridiculous and adorable :giggle:

 

[jorats]

It's looking good! You are doing a great job.

 

[hopefloats]

:laugh4: she is something else. I have a table jumper they are horrible to keep track of, crass has no fear. I like how paya is just sitting there looking while crass figures out how to get down.