Charlie

[Notamuised]

I took my boy Charlie to our vet tonight for a check. I was concerned that he was suddenly weak.

Normally, Charlie is a solid chunk of a man-rat who loves to play chase-the-toothbrush through the cage floor. He's probably at least 18 months old now and certainly not himself. Some of you will remember that he is long-time cagemates with Webster, Calloway and Marty.

He was diagnosed with enlarged kidneys and liver, some respiratory problems and probably heart disease, possibly secondary to lung abcesses.

He was prescribed the diuretic furosemide (Lasix) 0.05mL once a day;
Baytril (Enrofloxacin) 0.2 cc twice a day;
and Fortekor for his heart 0.05cc of 1/2 tablet in 1/2 tsp water once a day.

He will likely be on these meds for the rest of his life. If he doesn't show improvement by end of weekend then we'll adjust the meds.

Long-term prognosis isn't great. We're prepared for a PTS if the meds don't take. Prayers for my little guy please.

:roll:

 

[mamarat]

Oh Lori, I'm so sorry, sending healing vibes for Charlie.

 

[Moon]

Oh, what terrible news for you. Lots of hugs and scritchems and health sent from me.

 

[jorats]

Poor sweet Charlie.
If he does improve, please do let us know, we haven't yet gone as far as trying the heart meds but am very interested in hearing the outcome.
Also, if you don't mind my asking, did you buy the meds at the clinic or the drug store and was it costly?
Was this with Dr. Vannevel?

 

[Notamuised]

It was Dr. Vannevel. Who else is there ?

The Fortekor heart medicine I got from the vet - 5 pills for $25.50
The Lasix (furosemide) diuretic I got from the pharmacy because they are able to provide it in liquid form. It cost about $25 as well.

Charlie is spending the evening resting in my fleece sweater on my lapel. I'm anxious for the night to pass so that I can wake up to an improvement in the morning.

 

[jorats]

Hehehe... you're right, there's no one like Janice.

I'm going to keep my fingers and toes crossed!!

 

[lilspaz68]

Lasix can take up to 3 days to show any improvement. I just did a course with Kamali as a diagnostic.

I'm sorry to hear about Charlie, he is such a doll.

 

[KristyR]

Sending good vibes to you and Charlie...

 

[Alicemcmallis]

What are the concentrations of the medications you're giving? How many milligrams are the Fortekor pills?

I've had a few guinea pigs on heart medications with some success, and have known of many others that have had great success. Unfortunately it can take a bit of time fiddling with the doses as it's difficult to know exactly the right dose for each animal right off the bat.

We usually start off with a really high dose of Lasix if there's lots of fluid in the chest cavity to give immediate relief and then taper down to a reasonable daily dose. Also we start off with a higher dose of Fortekor then try and give a bit less to see what an appropriate dose would be for that particular animal.

If it's a heart issue for sure and you get it under control with the Fortekor, you may not need to keep him on the Lasix forever.

Having said all that, I might be concerned about using the heart meds if he's got kidney issues as it can make things worse in that respect. Can you get blood work done to check his kidney values?

Did he have any other signs of anything wrong other than weakness? How is his appetite and water intake? Does he have increased urination?

I hope you find this morning that there has been an improvement!!

 

[jorats]

Notamuised vet is my vet and I can assure you, she's pretty thorough in her examinations and she's very current on rattie issues.

But... are you saying that the symptoms of heart disease is the same as kidney failure?

We did have a rat, Ben, display what we thought was heart failure but all along it was indeed kidney failure. But we thought we just missed the signs.
Very interesting...

 

[Notamuised]

What are the concentrations of the medications you're giving? How many milligrams are the Fortekor pills?

Fortekor 5mg. Mixing 1/2 tablet with 1/2 tsp of water and giving 0.05cc of this mixture once daily. I was given 5 tablets.

Lasix (furosemide) 10mg/mL. Giving 0.05mL once daily.

Baytril 25mg/mL. Giving 0.2cc twice daily.

 

[Alicemcmallis]

Jo, some of the symptoms could be similar - lack of appetite, lethargy, but of course they're symptoms of so many things. But I was asking about the kidneys specifically because Notamuised said he was diagnosed with enlarged kidneys.

Notamuised, are you sure the vet didn't say 0.5 ccs of the Fortekor instead of 0.05? I just did some quick math basing his weight on an assumed 500 grams and at 0.05 ccs of the mixture the vet told you to make, he's only getting 0.1 mg/kg of the drug. On Ratguide the recommended dose is 1 mg/kg, once or twice a day.

At 0.1 mg/kg, even if he's only a 300 gram rat, the med isn't going to do much if he really does have a heart condition that is so bad he's failing.

http://ratguide.com/meds/cardiovascular ... loride.php

He also appears to be getting a relatively low dose of the Lasix, on the very low end of the dosing scale. With guinea pigs at first we give 5-10 mgs/kg to stabilize, then go down to the lowest dose possible. It looks like this vet is starting at the lowest dose possible.

Here is the info from ratguide on Lasix:

http://ratguide.com/meds/urinary_tract_ ... semide.php

Fortekor isn't as dangerous to use with kidney issues as the older heart med enalapril (Fortekor is benazepril), but maybe she's low dosing because he has enlarged kidneys and she is nervous about making any issue in that area worse, which is reasonable.

However, if he is in actual heart failure, you run the risk of him dying of that before the drugs can have any affect on his kidneys. Not to say that your vet doesn't know what she's doing, just to throw it out there. Vets can be very cautious as it's drilled into them from day one to "do no harm". Which obviously is great in most circumstances, but sometimes you have to be aggressive and do things outside the usual comfort level.

How is he this weekend? I hope I'm not posting all this and something bad has happened.

 

[user 78]

Alicemcmallis, Charlie passed that same day.