CAR Bacillus in my colony

[victoria]

I got a call this morning with the histopathology results for Sophie. Part of the reason I had it done is I felt that I have more respiratory issues than most people seem to have, or at least that they are more persistent even though I think I do a pretty decent job of providing a healthy environment and diet for my rats. I got a quick run through (there was a lot going on) but one of the things that stuck out was the Bacillus infection she mentioned. I asked about CAR Bacillus before and she wasn't sure what I was talking about and it didn't immediately dawn on me when she called that Cilia-Associated Respiratory Bacillus is the same thing. Duh.

I have to go pick up Batryl today anyway so I will pick up the report and make sure it is in fact CAR B and not some other type of Bacillus but I'm unsure of what to do or think. I have bunnies and they have had contact with my rats at some point, so they certainly have it too. (It's quite possible they introduced it... they were adopted by a friend and were prone to chronic URIs at the time. URIs are not so chronic now, but they come about easily - especially when they insist on peeing on the blanket in their pen no matter how many times I change it.) It's not clear how easily it's transmitted, so even if I let my two colonies die off (they have both been exposed as I have tried intros at various points) my bunnies could potentially re-transmit it to new rats. It's also not something that can be screened for through quarantine as carriers can be asymptomatic, so there's also the question of how common it is in the domestic rat population and what the likelihood of reintroducing it back into my home if I do eradicate it. (Especially since I get my rats from bad situations, not that there are rats with healthy, reliable backgrounds here.) That said, I don't think it's fair to continue to knowingly expose rats it. (I had contacted a woman about a rat found in a building before this, I don't know what to do.)

I know there are other members that have dealt with this, I'm wondering what their thoughts are. I also wonder if other members have had histopathology done and what sorts of things they have found. (How common is CAR B, from those samples that have been screened?)

 

[lilspaz68]

Talk to Joanne (jorats) :sad3: I am so sorry Victoria.

 

[Godmother]

I am really sorry to hear this. It seems that there is no end to the awful things that our rats are susceptible to. I don't recall ever hearing about CAR.

 

[crumbilina]

I noticed on rat guide that it said that it is transmitted by direct contact with another infected rat and that there is no evidence that it can be transmitted by fomites (objects like doorknobs).
I don't know how conclusive that is, but it seems as though you can keep infected rats and non infected rats in the same house you just have to be very meticulous in keeping them apart.

http://ratguide.com/health/bacteria/car_bacillus.php

Hopefully that will help and so sorry that you have to go through this :-/

 

[SQ]

I am very very sorry

:hugs:

 

[victoria]

@ Crumbilina
I already saw that but it still means that I would have to be meticulous keeping my rats away from new ones and the new ones away from the bunnies as well. As much as I try to avoid contact between the rats and the bunnies it does happen sometimes and we would realistically need a much bigger space to definitely avoid any contact between them, ever. At the same time, I'm not ok with the prospect of knowingly bringing in other rats in.

I'll hopefully get a copy of the histopathology report emailed tomorrow and get a closer look at it. She didn't mention that Sophie had Myco, but I don't know if that's because it wasn't present or it was not as surprising as the rest. What I'm really curious about is how common it is, how likely it is I will get it again? Ugh. She even had pneumonia even though it wasn't apparent with a stethoscope or in the actual necropsy.

On a more positive/interesting note, apparently U of G is to have a PCR test available next year that will be able to screen for everything at once, so one could test for CAR B, Sendai, Myco, SDA, etc. all in one shot.

 

[jorats]

CAR B is actually becoming quite common in rats. A rat with it can remain relatively healthy for a long time and another can be sick all their lives, cutting it rather short.
Fortunately it is not as easily transmitted. I know this to be true because my mom's rats and my sister's rats do not have it. ( hystos done) We all live in the same building and always playing with each other's rats.
I have talked at length about it with my vet. She knows how this is crushing me. But she still does not recommend quarantining yourself, especially if you rescue. We have to weigh the pros and cons. She told me that if the fate of a rat is certain death than its best to risk it and adopt even though you have car b in your colony. Also, you could wipe it out of your home only to bring it in again with one rat.
The only way to truly protect your rats is to always do "all in and all out". This means you adopt a group of rats and no more come until they are all gone.
Wiping it out of your home would mean you need to be rat free for at the very least 6 months.
It really sucks having it but the chances of getting it is very high.
I believe Pink had extra info... Something about a med killing it.

 

[victoria]

According my vet and Rat Guide, researchers in Europe have had success with sulfamerazine, using it on mice. That makes A LOT of sense because I'm finding my rats improve initially on Batryl-Doxy then plateau. The ones I have switched to Septra have improved on it but then also plateau. Switch back, same thing. At one point we tried all three with Annabelle and it got rid of the frog noises she'd been making for months but she never got to 100%.

My vet also mentioned it's fairly common, maybe after I have some time to read up some more I'll talk to the vet about trying to get rid of it in my colony if it looks like it's a realistic option.

 

[jorats]

I'm letting my colony die out. Right now I'm only adopting older rats, even if exposed to the car b, if they are strong and healthy, I feel that they won't be affected as badly. Look at my Davis... Lived to almost 42 months... never sick a day in his life but shared his cage with infected rats.
I've had car b in my colonies for at least 3 years now. Some days it feels like a losing battle and then I have one like Pony... 26 months old and doing good. Sometimes I think I have more PT cases than car b related death. But I've reached a point where I want to try a clean out. In the past most of my rats live to 32 - 36+ months. I want that again.

 

[victoria]

I have two healthy 30 month olds and two not so healthy 26 month olds (Max's brother and Pony's sister ironically), so it's clearly not a death sentence. And my last three loses have been tumour related, not respiratory, and I don't think there was much more that I could have reasonably done to help any of them/prevent the tumours.

 

[xxchelle]

I can't offer much advice, but I do know that with the two rats I had tested last year when I went through the SV, they were both negative for CAR B.

 

[jorats]

I think it's good to periodically get a rat tested, only for those with large colonies. It keeps you aware. I'm very pleased to hear that U of G will soon be able to do the testing. I know a couple of years ago we tried to get the myco tested but they just weren't there yet.

 

[OldsGal]

I know I am coming in late on this thread but I had a rat test positive for Car B about 3 years ago or so. Talked with my Vet who is the exotics vet for our local zoo and also specializes in small pocket critters. The way he explained it to me in small critters that it is like the common cold virus that humans carry. Every human being on this planet is a walking spewing bacteria/virus machine. Test any human right now and you will find traces of very serious virus/bacteria in their system at this moment. He explained that the only rats that won't test for Car B (in the USA anyway) are those that are born in labs. Any petstore, rescue, breeder, or other rat will more than likely test positive for Car B at some point in their life and there is no way to prevent it. Just because a rat tests positive for Car B does not mean that rat will ever experience problems. Just like in humans you have some that have weaker immune systems that can't fight it off and are sick more often and sometimes you have humans who have immune systems that seem like the rock of Gibraltar that never fail. So he told me that there was no preventative measures to take and nothing that could be done differently. Sure you can let your colony die off and wait then start with a new colony but more than likely that colony already has Car B too.

eta: The only reason I had that rat tested was because she was a new rescue who died very fast after coming in and I wanted to make sure it wasn't SDA or Sendai. It was not. The vet just showed me her lungs were severely compromised and riddled with cancer and it was more than likely the stress of transport/rescue that sped up her death. I have not had any issues since that rat with any major respiratory issues that don't clear up with a round of ABs. In the past yes I have had the occasional chronic rat that won't clear up but no numbers out of the ordinary who don't. As Jo said I have more porblems with PT and Tumors that anything else with all of the rats I see.

 

[xxchelle]

I agree, Jo. With me running a rescue, I DO want to start periodically testing. Last time my vet had to send the samples down to the states - I'll be THRILLED if U of G can do it next time!

 

I'm sorry Victoria :hugs:

Just a question: is there any other way of knowing besides testing? I have never heard of it before ..I feel like I'm in a panic now.

 

[jorats]

No, only through blood work.

 

[Godmother]

This is interesting. I had forgotten that was the problem that was affecting Jorats' colony. It will be good to have testing available in Canada, even though it doesn't sound like an easily avoidable problem. No wonder rats have such terribly short lives.

 

[SQ]

That is what I was thinking too ...
If it really is common (rat diseases are much more common in the USA then in Canada),
then with all the different strains of myco, poor breeding practices increasing the prevalence of genetic health issues and CAR Bacillus, no wonder the average lifespan of rats keeps decreasing.

In the last 4 or 5 years, I have found that rats who do not respond to the diff combos of antibiotics for respir, almost always have had a heart problem which was helped by heart meds
Will be very interested when the UofG can do testing as I would be interested in getting one rattie tested in my very large colony

 

[victoria]

In respects to the new PCR test that's supposed to be available next year, it's not that testing for CAR B is not available in Canada (I know Guelph will do histopathologies on rats and I imagine U of M would as well) it's that if you want to test your pet rat to screen for these through blood work, you have to do one test for each pathogen (and I believe the blood work has to be done at RADIL in Missouri.) I had wanted to get Monty's blood tested last year to see if there was something to explain what was going on but it would have had to be one test for CAR B, one for Sendai, one for Myco, etc. At some point, the cost becomes really prohibitive if you don't have a specific pathogen you are looking for.

For people with large numbers, the nature of CAR B would mean that in order for someone to be able to say with confidence their rats are free of it, they would have to test rats from every cage, not just one of their rats.

In respect to heart disease, Sophie's third diagnosis (she had 3 serious health problems: the tumours, the pneumonia, and myocardial degeneration) was heart disease but the conclusion was that it was brought on by the other two. I looked into heart disease a little last year (again, trying to figure out what could be wrong with Monty) and read that heart disease is often brought on by respiratory illness so that is also something to consider. Sophie showed no typical symptoms of heart disease (blue extremities, trouble breathing, getting tired easily, etc.) so that was a surprise to me. (She was also older than I believed according to the vet records and they are probably accurate since she was taken there directly from the pet store when she was bought as a baby.)

For myself, I think I have decided, at least in the short term, not to let my colony die off. There's no way to guarantee that CAR B won't be brought back into my home or given to new rats by my bunnies (I am going to try to get one of them tested when I have the money) and most of the rats that I take in are much better than they otherwise could have been. I will not however foster or rescue with the intent to adopt out as I don't want to risk spreading CAR B any more than it already is. When Monty passes, I will look into trying to treat all my guys with Septra long term if the vet thinks there's a realistic chance we can get rid of it in the colony.

 

[jorats]

My vet has always told me this about heart disease... it's usually brought on by respiratory issues. If you don't treat and manage the respiratory then there's no sense in treating the heart issues...that's been her case. And why she won't give us heart meds.