Can you suggest any other treatment for Rosie?

[Bundyrats]

Rosie is my adorable entire female russian blue berkshire. She will be two in a month (mid May). She's had breathing issues for sometime now and I tried a Zithromax/Doxy combo for about 3-4 weeks. I tried Baytril before that but could not get it into her (believe me, we tried). The abs helped a little but didn't fix things. My vet has explained that the breathing could be due to physical issues such as permanent scarring of the sinus or breathing tract. Our next step is dexamethasone (steroid) injections.

Can anyone suggest anything else? He asked me to ask if there is a rat virus, say equivalent to the feline virus or dogs parvo (I know this sounds silly him asking ME to find out but he now realises that I am in a lot more contact with rat people than he will ever be).

I saw a pic of a rat being nebulised in a cat carrier cage (I think it was by lilspaz), should I be trying this? What would I nebulise with?

That is NOT my hairy arm!


My dear little Rosebud.


Excuse the wine glass...

 

[jorats]

lilspaz is having good results with nebulizing. You could try it.
I don't know if rats have something similar to parvo but their respiratory infections are extremely severe enough to compare. But, if your sweetie has pulmonary abscesses, this would explain the lack of progress with abs. You could try the dex or even prednisone which might be easier on her body. But she does need to remain on an antibiotic while on pred and dex, because it can do a number on their immune system.

 

[Bundyrats]

Yes, thanks jorats, the vet did say that she must be on abs if we put her on steroids. I've tried pred before with Meesha (RIP), it was in tablet form. Is that the best way?

 

[Aida]

"This is NOT my hairy arm!''
LOL!!!!

 

[SQ]

Try baytril (10mg/Ib) + doxy (2.5-5 mg/Ib), or baytril (10mg/Ib) + zithro (10 mg to 15 mg/Ib), or if it is recent and has come up fast - baytril + clavamox (10mg/Ib) twice a day

If a combo helps, keep her on it for at least 6 weeks. If you add a few drops of strawberry quik to the baytril, she may be willing to take it. mine do. There are threads on here with other ideas for things you can do to disguise meds.

If the combos do not help, then it may be her heart ... try giving enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day).
If it helps then atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day) and lasix (as needed, usuually starting as 1 to 2 mg/Ib twice a day) are added. Antibiotics may also be needed
Digoxin (0.0025 mg/Ib twice a day) is added if she has an enlarged heart on as seen on an xray.

I would test dose for a heart condition before trying a nebulizer.
Nebulizing may greatly worsen a heart condition.

 

[jorats]

I would test dose for a heart condition before trying a nebulizer.
Nebulizing may greatly worsen a heart condition.

This is true. Nebulizing a rat with a weak heart can kill her.

 

[Bundyrats]

I may have missed something....why do we think it could be a weak heart? Her snuffles are the only thing I've noticed, other than that, she is still happy to do her thing. She has slowed down a bit but she will be 2 soon...

 

[jorats]

For some reason I thought it was worse than that. Like wheezing and such. For snuffles, I probably would leave it be then. It might be an allergy thing for her.

 

[lilspaz68]

Is that her only symptom? snuffles? If so it could just be nasal congestion and nebulizing with saline might help with that.

 

[hopefloats]

I may have missed something....why do we think it could be a weak heart? Her snuffles are the only thing I've noticed, other than that, she is still happy to do her thing. She has slowed down a bit but she will be 2 soon...

Your first post said she had breathing problems that would indicate more that just snuffles. Noise can be fluid filled lungs from things like pneumonia or heart problems. Heart problems can sound like they are sick. Since it is ongoing it wouldn't be unheard of. If she has damage from being sick you might want to try a steroid I don't think a nebulizer will help if it is damaged. High humidity and I am talking a low level like over 40% in a room would cause both my girls to make noise.

 

[Bundyrats]

Hi, yes, it is more than just snuffles, she is gurgly and the vet said that she is a bit chesty too. So I believe it's a resp infection and she's had it since before Christmas. The abs helped a bit but I don't think we went for long enough on them, also, she won't take them in any food 3-4 weeks was a long as I could get and I can't force them into her with the crop feeder, like I did my other two. Rose is anti antibiotics!

My vet has a note on my file that I can come in to get the dex as soon as I think she needs it. I hate putting her on that but I don't want her struggling for breath (which she isn't just yet).
I hate it because I always feel like it's the beginning of the end. I really wished they lived longer

 

[victoria]

Have you taken an xray to see if there are pulmonary abscesses or heart issues? (Sometimes heart issues can be detected by xrays, sometimes they can't but an xray at least may shed some more light on her condition.)

I know it's stupid to ask because you've probably already done it, but have you already removed any possible environmental irritants? Sometimes even beddings that are safe and non-toxic can irritate some rats respiratory systems and not others.

If you saw improvements on the meds, you may just need to keep her on them for longer. It sometimes takes a long time for these issues to be resolved especially if they've been going on for a while. What doses were you giving?

Force medicating is one of the most useful skills you can learn as a rat parent. It can be done quickly and safely and is much more reliable than hiding it in food. Rats that are very ill will often not eat so it's better to be comfortable doing it before they are at that point and there is no other way of getting meds into them. Lilspaz has a great video on Youtube on how to force medicate, it should take less than a minute twice a day.

ETA: I wouldn't add Dex if the antibiotics helped some nor would i give Dex on it's own (ever). Dex is even more of an immune suppressant that Pred and any time I've tried Pred and it helped, the rats were so sick I was never able to wean them off and it just became a palliative treatment.

 

[Bundyrats]

Actually no, we haven't taken an x-ray. It's not something my vet had suggested but perhaps I should. If it were a pulmonary abcess what would I do?

The only bedding I use is hammocks which I am changing twice daily now and some folded bedding material for the three different levels which is changed and washed twice weekly. I use a low irritant washing liquid and do an extra rinse. This is the bedding I've used since day one and if I remove it, there will be nothing else in the cage....

The base of the cage I clean out every morning but Rosie doesn't make a big mess, so there's not much urine

She is now in this big cage all by herself. Sorry about the low quality, the flash on my phone wouldn't go off for some reason.



I understand about the force medicating, Sheba and Meesha (both RIP) I had no real problem with but when I went to do the same with Rosie, it was a major battle. The minute she felt the crop feeder on her lips she was having nothing of it. I had to stop because she was almost gasping for breath and was in a terribly stressed state. You know when you just KNOW that you have to stop. And I know how it sounds just typing it here, I would be like 'oh just get a grip and give it to her' but it was causing so much stress for her, she was very upset. I did watch lilspaz's video and thought no worries, I'll try that but no, no hope on earth to get it into her. She's like a fat little roly poly twisting her head this way and that to avoid anything touching her lips, if I held her head any firmer I would cause her damage. It was quite distressing for the both of us and I have kind of decided that it's not an option for her....

 

[victoria]

Fabric shouldn't irritate her respiratory tract. I was talking more of wood chips or other types of disposable bedding -- even if they are non-toxic, sometimes they are dusty and can be irritants.

 

[SQ]

I may have missed something....why do we think it could be a weak heart? Her snuffles are the only thing I've noticed, other than that, she is still happy to do her thing. She has slowed down a bit but she will be 2 soon...

Breathing problems that do not get better when all of the combos of anitbiotics (if improving they are given for at least 6 weeks), then the problem is frequently a heart issue.
Many heart problems do not show up on an xray, which is why an xray is only used after you know (by test dosing) that there is a heart issue.

If she just has sniffles, then it may be an environmental irritant or allergies.

 

[victoria]

I may have missed something....why do we think it could be a weak heart? Her snuffles are the only thing I've noticed, other than that, she is still happy to do her thing. She has slowed down a bit but she will be 2 soon...

Breathing problems that do not get better when all of the combos of anitbiotics (if improving they are given for at least 6 weeks), then the problem is frequently a heart issue.
Many heart problems do not show up on an xray, which is why an xray is only used after you know (by test dosing) that there is a heart issue.

If she just has sniffles, then it may be an environmental irritant or allergies.

She said the antibiotics did help but she doesn't think she did them long enough, so that doesn't indicate heart issues.

An x-ray would show a pulmonary abscess. There isn't anything you can be done to cure them, it's good to know though so you can make a decision about her treatment.

Have you tried asking at the human pharmacy if they sell a zithro syrup for young children? I know there are two types available here - a cherry flavoured one by Pfizer (and another cherry flavoured generic one) and a generic one by Sandoz that's creme caramel flavoured. My rats will lick the creme caramel one off my finger, even the ones that are really difficult to medicate.

 

[SQ]

She said the antibiotics did help but she doesn't think she did them long enough, so that doesn't indicate heart issues.

I didn't say it did, however, with heart problems antibiotics may help somewhat just not enough.
If you read my first post, I suggested she test dose with a heart med only after trying the various combos of antibiotics and to keep her rat on antibiotis for at least 6 weeks if the antibiotic was helping.
I was providing info and responding to a comment.

 

[Bundyrats]

I don't use wood chips or any shavings or paper stuff the only thing I do use is recycled cat litter in the litter tray. But she's not in there for long....so I wouldn't have thought that would be it but maybe I will try something different next time just in case.

Perhaps I do need to try the abs for a solid 6 weeks as you've said SQ, just to rule out infection. It's just so hard to make that happen with Rose.

Victoria, I'll check on the Zithro syrup but I would have thought it would require a script...

Thanks for your help.

 

[Bundyrats]

I don't use wood chips or any shavings or paper stuff the only thing I do use is recycled cat litter in the litter tray. But she's not in there for long....so I wouldn't have thought that would be it but maybe I will try something different next time just in case.

Perhaps I do need to try the abs for a solid 6 weeks as you've said SQ, just to rule out infection. It's just so hard to make that happen with Rose.

Victoria, I'll check on the Zithro syrup but I would have thought it would require a script...

Thanks for your help.

Edit: oh oops, that was weird, it let me submit this twice for some reason.

 

[victoria]

Can your vet not give you a script? My vet writes me one and asks the pharmacist not to reconstitute it so I can split it in half and mix it at home. I also save myself the hassle of going to the pharmacy every 10 days.