Another surgery UPDATE

[Lise]

Tevy is living on her own now, and I had finally started to be okay with the tumor. Not great, but I finally accepted it and realized I still love her and just to cherish the time left with her.

That was, until I was at work this morning. The vet I work for who (she is an angel) did the first tumor removal for me (which I paid for) asked how my rats were doing. I told her about how Tevy is doing these days, how the lump is still growing but she is still active and happy. It so happens I am at the clinic on Tuesday for a surgery practicum for school (no pay) and the Dr. said I can bring Tevy in if I want and she will do another lumpectomy for me -- for free! Even though it is unrelated, she said she could just fudge it as "first surgery didn't work" type thing (I assume if the owner of the clinic ever asked). She also joked about maybe we can turn this into a 5 year old rat if we keep taking these things off. I know it was a joke, but it makes me so happy she truly cares about me and Tevy.

For those who don't know, she is not an exotics vet, just a regular dog/cat vet who has been helping me out by looking at my rats since she is interested to learn, and I get a discount at work.... whereas the exotics vets here cost a fortune.

I am aware that there could be complications, or she may not recover fully from the anesthetic due to her age. I am aware that another tumor will probably pop up after I get this one removed. But I am thankful for this opportunity, and think it would be foolish to pass it up. Do you agree?

 

[mandycoot]

You said previously that she's 25 months old? I have had surgery done at that age and it went beautifully. Of course there's no guarantee, but personally, I'd go for it.

 

[jorats]

It's like a sign...
At her age, I would go for it, if she's in good health otherwise.
What a gift... a truly wonderful caring vet!!
Do keep us posted.

 

[Lise]

She was approximately 25 months old at the time of her last surgery, she is now 27 months old. She came out of the anesthetic quickly and easily last time.

I am going to try do do a pre-op photo shoot tonight.

 

[LA]

Aw that's great. I am glad to see a vet wants to learn more about rats. I am so glad for you and Tevy.

 

[Moon]

Knowing that there could be complications due to age, I would still go for it. Sounds like your vet is really eager to learn, and I know that if I could be partly responsible for bringing a knowledgable, rat friendly vet to the world, I would do anything to help.

 

[raindrop]

I deal with a vet who isn't a exoctic vet and he is wonderful. Even though they don't have the expertise they can be good.

Ann

 

[Melissa]

It's so wonderful you have such a great vet.

 

[lilspaz68]

Go for it Lise. Another one may pop up, but it will be small and will take time to truly affect her life, and most likely won't limit her lifespan.

Good luck wee girl!!! I wish I had a vet like yours right now.

 

[Lise]

The surgery today didn't go nearly as well as the first one. What a long and stressful day!

I jinxed it by remarking how great it was going only 10 minutes in when the tumor was already pretty much excised.

This is what we took out:

There was a very large vessel going to it that the vet tied off very well. However there was still a small amount of bleeding from an unknown source. Stitching up the subcutaneous was very difficult this time and brought the surgery to 45 minutes long. Not sure if it was due to the location or if the tumor affects the subq tissues but it was a challenge and didn't go nicely. We then glued the skin layer same as last time. It wasn't very pretty though.

Put her back in a kennel and the incision site was still oozing blood. Unfortunately this prompted Tevy to start at the incision and along with a bit of a poor closure, the next time I came back there was blood all over. We had to put her under anesthetic a second time to re-glue the incision. And then fashion an e-collar.

It has *finally* scabbed over and stopped oozing blood this evening after doing so all day. However, the e-collar has to stay on 24/7 it looks like because when I tried taking it off she immediately started licking and if she pulled off one of those scabs I'm scared I won't be able to control the bleeding at home. So it is a diet of baby cereal/baby food/liquid stuff right now since she can't use her hands to hold a block. I'm giving Nutrical as well. She is drinking well from the water bottle with the e-collar on though! Thank god.

She is miserable, and her fur is very poofed up and not going back to normal. She isn't even going into a hidey-house just sitting looking pissed off in a corner of the cage. Only a few days of intensive care though!! And then we will be over the hill. We are definitely not totally out of the woods yet though....

I couldn't get her to hold still for a good shot, and am not going to further bug her right now but here is the bottom of the incision area you can see how scabbed and bloody it is.

 

[mamarat]

Aww poor baby and poor you. Sending healing vibes. :tumkiss:

 

[Fidget]

Tevy is living on her own...she will do another lumpectomy for me -- for free!......she may not recover fully from the anesthetic due to her age.... thankful for this opportunity, and think it would be foolish to pass it up. Do you agree? ...didn't go nearly as well as the first one... surgery to 45 minutes long.....didn't go nicely. Put her back in a kennel and the incision site was still oozing blood. Unfortunately this prompted Tevy to start at the incision and along with a bit of a poor closure, the next time I came back there was blood all over. We had to put her under anesthetic a second time to re-glue the incision. And then fashion an e-collar.....She is miserable, and her fur is very poofed up and not going back to normal. She isn't even going into a hidey-house just sitting looking pissed off in a corner of the cage. Only a few days of intensive care though!! And then we will be over the hill.

You think so? You've made this kid part of your interest & learning experience in the real world. "Worst that could happen is she doesn't survive this and I'll lose her anyway without help, maybe she'll have longer in comfort"

They don't come out of vet school expert at everything, they get that way by experimenting on kids. None of our kids would get experienced care unless some didn't.
I've sacrificed a couple babies to vet's learning. Free neuters from the spca's vet when I adopted. Trouble is that I wasn't told they'd never done it before. I thought the spca's own vet would have experiences plus bringing them in, fixing them up and sending them out.
I give your vet credit for being up front about that. I don't know how I feel about you experimenting on a kid that is already compromised by age and illness.....I'll never put my kids up for 'learning' again. But I've been there. Maybe better I didn't know. Had I known it was iffy an they didn't make it I'd probably suffer harder.

Why don't they experiment on the kids that have already been unloved and used for makeup testing? They're no less feeling & valuable but how could you rescue a kid and love it and then allow experiments on them?

Whether it saves her life or has just make the end a hell I don't know. And honest, Lise, this is not a judgement on you personally, its about the subject.
Hard thing to hear and think about, especially with some painful history.

I just hope that Tevy is finding comfort where she can, and that her difficulties are temporary and lead to a permanent benefit for her.

 

[jorats]

She looks good though, considering the loss of blood and twice going under.
I truly believe that going through with surgery was still a good choice. What would be the alternative? Watching a rat get overtaken by a tumour is hard. Putting them to sleep while they are still wide eyed and aware because of the tumour is even harder.
You gave her a chance and that's what matters.

That e collar looks good too, it's not so much a cone but more like a big collar.

Sending her healing vibes!!

 

[wonderrodent]

Oh wow! I really hope she'll be just fine in a few days. Hang in there, sweetheart!!! Give her tons of belly kisses from me.

 

[Fidget]

And :kisses: Tevy. Being strong is not an invitation to testing your strength, it's an invitation to being brave enought to get closer. I hope this stuff gives you longer healthier & happier time kiddo.
For what it's worth, you have a fan :salut:

 

[jorats]

Fidget, I sure understand your concern with Tevy. You've had such a horrible experience, but Tevy is in good hands, Lise is a vet tech so she'll get the best of care.

 

[Lise]

Fidget, just to clarify the vet already did the exact same surgery on this rat two months ago and it went flawlessly. I monitored both of the surgeries. I do not blame this on her *at all*. Yes a super experienced exotics vet might have been able to more quickly and adeptly react to the difficulties encountered, but I don't feel that she did an inadequate job in any way. I guess although perhaps the vet is not as experienced, I just object to the reference that I was subjecting Tevy to "experimenting". I work alongside this vet in surgery for months now, and know she is a qualified and capable surgeon. If I thought otherwise there is no way I ever would have put Tevy through a single surgery.

You can actually see the vessels including the one incredibly large one on the tumor (even though it is a crappy pic taken with my camera phone) and it is even more obvious to me it was only a short matter of time before it would have started to drain her body of its resources.

While I have had momentary flickers of doubt, in the end I don't regret my decision to go ahead with the surgery.

And Tevy is a trooper. If anyone can make it through this, she can.

Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts! It is greatly appreciated by myself and the smeeze.

Edited to add: The Doctor was showing me a textbook this morning about rodent Ovariohysterectomy (spay) and it said that in Sprague Dawley rats there was a significant reduction in mammary tumors in spayed rats. She suggested possible spays in the future... This when my regular exotics vet told me a spay wasn't worth it and wanted to charge me a ridiculous sum of money!! I thought that was great as well.

 

[jorats]

Wow, I'm glad to see that it's making it in the textbooks! I've long said that spays without a doubt helps reduce mammary tumours but most vets don't even give it a thought. Even my vet in the beginning wasn't sold on it, until she saw all ours and how well it works.

Back on topic.. go Tevy go!!! :cheer:

 

[Fidget]

I just hope Tevy is ok. And I know that I'm not wishing that harder than Lise is.
Everything I say is just one voice, one opinion and I don't always read all the facts first.
Nobody should take my posts as anything but questions, not answers - otherwise they aren't doing their own homework.
I stir the waters so that the pertinent stuff rises to the top.
I stand by my post - from fear & loss.
But it's not all right and wrong with these kids. You start thinking that and then you start dividing into groups, and that is about people not the kids.
I've made big mistakes that someone could have told me better. And I've done things people would have warned me against that turned out best for the kid.
Mom makes the decisions, we support her cause she's the one that needs it, the kid has the best advocate possible.
Not knocking you Lise, and my heart aches for what you're going thru with your girl.

But when we stop asking questions in a new situation we aren't doing anyone any good - us or kids.

 

[user 78]

I think the surgery was totally worth it, even with the end results not being exactly as planned. Yes, there were complications, but every surgery has those risks- experienced exotics vet or not. Tevy has a real shot at making it, especially with the care that Lise can provide her post surgery and long term. When the only other option is to watch a tumor slowly take their life away from them, no matter how hard they fight it.. Well, I think the risk is entirely worth it.

I hope Tevy heals soon, Lise, and that she comes through all of this with flying colors. Lots of love and healing for the smeezer! Oh, and tell her that shade of blue on her eCollar makes her look fabulous! :wink: